"Armour Piercing Keris" ???

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

We are talking here about a system of belief:- think in terms of any major religious system of belief, or any culturally accepted system of belief.
[...]
Timo, we're talking "Keris", we're talking "Javanese Belief", we are not talking about whether one or more breast plates were actually pierced or not. The piercing is totally irrelevant.

We were talking about both. Both the belief and the objective reality that is negotiated between keris and breastplate when they meet. (You were talking about belief, and I was talking about keris-meets-breastplate, so together we were talking about both.)

Once upon a time, there was no belief that such a keris could pierce a Dutch breastplate. Now there is. To simply say that "the belief is what the belief is and that is all that matters" impoverishes the discussion. IMO, changes in, and the evolution of, beliefs is interesting and important. Since, in this case, the keris has, from the description, a functional "armour-piercing" geometry, the question arises of what basis the belief has.

There's a lot of interplay between belief and combat. Magic protection against bullets (whether personal magic, such as Roman Nose's bullet-proofness, bullet-proof shirts (e.g., Ghost Dance shirts), conferred by a leader (e.g., Rock Christ fighters), or a learned ritual (e.g., Boxers)) has concrete effects on combat, even if it doesn't work. In hand-to-hand combat, it's very important, and things like protective tattoos, prayer/orasyon and amulets (or even all 3 at once, as some have used) affect fighting, just through belief in them.

So a question: is belief that a particular keris can pierce a Dutch breastplate a variety of practical battle-magic, or is it a belief similar to believing that a katana can cut through a gun barrel (also a commonly-held belief)? It might not be possible to answer this question, but I think it's still an interesting question to ask.

[A. G. Maisey]

Timo, you may be talking about reality, but your reality has very little relevance to the reality of Javanese culture and society, and it is this reality that I have been trying to convey to the people who are following this thread.

Personally I have no interest at all in whether a Brojoguno keris could actually pierce a Dutch breastplate, however, this ability to pierce a Dutch breastplate is not something that evolved as a belief, it is recorded in the court literature of the time.

My approach to this matter is purely cultural, and as such I accept that those Javanese people who are a part of Javanese keris culture believe that a Brojoguno keris could pierce a Dutch breastplate. This belief is based upon court literature.

This cultural approach is perhaps where the study of the Javanese keris varies from the study of other weaponry:- to understand the keris it is necessary to be able to understand at least some part of the Javanese mindset, and this mindset in many respects has very little relevance to logic and reality.

Yes, I agree, your question is an interesting one to ask, from the point of view of a person who studies general weaponry, but from the perspective of a person who studies the Javanese keris, it is perhaps close to irrelevant.

[A. G. Maisey]

Kulino, how many edges does this tombak have, 3, or 4?

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Kulino, how many edges does this tombak have, 3, or 4?

3 I think

Donny

[Kulino]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Kulino, how many edges does this tombak have, 3, or 4?

It is diamond shaped.

[A. G. Maisey]

I think it is probably valid to call this a sajen ampel, but it is much finer than any I have handled.

[Kulino]

Any idea about age?
What does the kinatah tell? As far as I can tell it is a kind of lotus. Nothing like an anggrek.

[A. G. Maisey]

Please let me have a good, clear close-up of the base of the blade, taken at 90 degrees.

I may or may not be able to give an opinion.