Ivory Hilt Barong for Sharing

Sajen · 18th December 2016, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmsAndAntiques

.....the blade displays some signs of watering or wootz.

The last photo of the original post shows what I would characterize as wootz, but perhaps this is not known on Moro origin pieces, and is reflective of other forging used on Moro barong blades.

This will be a fine lamination.

ArmsAndAntiques · 18th December 2016, 10:40 PM

I attach a photo from the original poster highlighted. This to me, from this photo, looks like strong contrast kara taban wootz.

I've seen quite a few Moro pieces, and though not an expert in that region, cannot say I've seen similar lamination on those kinds of sword, or quite frankly many other blades that are laminated as opposed to watered.

Perhaps Asian Paladin can post some more images of this part of the blade.

One would imagine that if Indonesian parangs were mounted with Persian or Indian wootz blades and that Moro smiths were skilled enough to make exceptional quality twistcore then a wootz forged blade would be in the realm of possibility.

If combining that with the fact that barongs often had Chinese smith forged blades and there is strong evidence of the Chinese using wootz billets to make blades then could such an exceptional, perhaps Datu's barong, have been forged with wootz to signify the importance of the owner?

Aslan Paladin · 19th December 2016, 12:17 AM

I have cleaned and etched the blade with ascetic acid. That part in question was actually just dirt. The lamination pattern on the naga barong was random, somewhat unremarkable. However it is a shandigan blade, the first in my collection, and I am very happy about it. The bottom barong in my barong group photo has a double-edged, hollow ground blade.

Ian · 19th December 2016, 12:30 AM

Arms and Antiques,

I have not seen any evidence of wootz used in Moro weapons or heard of it being reported.

If such a thing did occur it would be extremely rare. As I look at the pictures of the cleaned blade, I'm not seeing anything that would suggest wootz. Some older Moro pieces were treated by collectors with various agents, including cosmoline, to prevent rust. These sometimes produced patterns on blades that were removed with the cleaning of the blade. I wonder if something similar occurred here.

Ian.

Aslan Paladin · 19th December 2016, 06:51 AM

For Arms and Antiques, here are pictures of the same side of the blade all cleaned up and etched (it would have been great if the blade turned out to be wootz but all is good the way it is).

Sajen · 19th December 2016, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aslan Paladin

For Arms and Antiques, here are pictures of the same side of the blade all cleaned up and etched (it would have been great if the blade turned out to be wootz but all is good the way it is).

Hello Aslan,

the lamination would come out much better when you polish the blade better IMVHO.

Regards,
Detlef

ArmsAndAntiques · 20th December 2016, 12:43 AM

How unfortunate. It's always exciting to look for wootz where it shouldn't be. But lamination is a good substitute especially on a fine overall example such as this.

Wootz does surprisingly turns up in sometimes the most unexpected places.

Battara · 20th December 2016, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Arms and Antiques,

I have not seen any evidence of wootz used in Moro weapons or heard of it being reported.

If such a thing did occur it would be extremely rare. As I look at the pictures of the cleaned blade, I'm not seeing anything that would suggest wootz. Some older Moro pieces were treated by collectors with various agents, including cosmoline, to prevent rust. These sometimes produced patterns on blades that were removed with the cleaning of the blade. I wonder if something similar occurred here.

Ian.

Totally agree with Ian. In fact, the same can be said about the whole Indonesian-Malaysian-Philippine region. When the exceedingly rare example shows up (in Indonesia) it always seems to be a trade blade from Persia.

Gavin Nugent · 26th November 2023, 11:13 AM

I've made a quick word search and I've not seen this example below bought to these pages, so I've added it to this thread being the first one of a few within the forum that I found.... Sir Stamford Raffles collection.

Battara · 27th November 2023, 12:29 AM

W

W!

Ian · 27th November 2023, 01:16 PM

Outstanding example Gavin. Is this one in your collection?

Gavin Nugent · 28th November 2023, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Outstanding example Gavin. Is this one in your collection?

No Ian, the collection is noted in the thread... Raffles.

kino · 28th November 2023, 05:28 PM

Hey Gavin, Might you have the dimensions on Raffles’ Barung?

18th December 2016, 10:40 PM	#2
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	I attach a photo from the original poster highlighted. This to me, from this photo, looks like strong contrast kara taban wootz. I've seen quite a few Moro pieces, and though not an expert in that region, cannot say I've seen similar lamination on those kinds of sword, or quite frankly many other blades that are laminated as opposed to watered. Perhaps Asian Paladin can post some more images of this part of the blade. One would imagine that if Indonesian parangs were mounted with Persian or Indian wootz blades and that Moro smiths were skilled enough to make exceptional quality twistcore then a wootz forged blade would be in the realm of possibility. If combining that with the fact that barongs often had Chinese smith forged blades and there is strong evidence of the Chinese using wootz billets to make blades then could such an exceptional, perhaps Datu's barong, have been forged with wootz to signify the importance of the owner? Attached Images

19th December 2016, 06:51 AM	#5
Aslan Paladin Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Te Aroha, New Zealand Posts: 122	For Arms and Antiques, here are pictures of the same side of the blade all cleaned up and etched (it would have been great if the blade turned out to be wootz but all is good the way it is). Attached Images Last edited by Aslan Paladin; 19th December 2016 at 04:19 PM.

26th November 2023, 11:13 AM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I've made a quick word search and I've not seen this example below bought to these pages, so I've added it to this thread being the first one of a few within the forum that I found.... Sir Stamford Raffles collection. Attached Images

27th November 2023, 12:29 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	WW!

19th December 2016, 12:17 AM	#3
Aslan Paladin Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Te Aroha, New Zealand Posts: 122	I have cleaned and etched the blade with ascetic acid. That part in question was actually just dirt. The lamination pattern on the naga barong was random, somewhat unremarkable. However it is a shandigan blade, the first in my collection, and I am very happy about it. The bottom barong in my barong group photo has a double-edged, hollow ground blade.

19th December 2016, 12:30 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,521	Arms and Antiques, I have not seen any evidence of wootz used in Moro weapons or heard of it being reported. If such a thing did occur it would be extremely rare. As I look at the pictures of the cleaned blade, I'm not seeing anything that would suggest wootz. Some older Moro pieces were treated by collectors with various agents, including cosmoline, to prevent rust. These sometimes produced patterns on blades that were removed with the cleaning of the blade. I wonder if something similar occurred here. Ian.

20th December 2016, 12:43 AM	#7
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	How unfortunate. It's always exciting to look for wootz where it shouldn't be. But lamination is a good substitute especially on a fine overall example such as this. Wootz does surprisingly turns up in sometimes the most unexpected places.

27th November 2023, 01:16 PM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,521	Outstanding example Gavin. Is this one in your collection?

28th November 2023, 05:28 PM	#13
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,020	Hey Gavin, Might you have the dimensions on Raffles’ Barung?