Wootz or not?

mariusgmioc · 14th December 2016, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Is my logic correct? Am I missing something?

Hello Ariel!

I think your logic is correct... up to a point.

You seem to miss the part that not all crucible steel is wootz. So not all the steel produced in India through crucible process has necessarily resulted in wootz.

So yes, wootz is crucible but crucible is not wootz. In other words, woots is not any crucible, and it is exactly this tiny difference between crucible and wootz that remains mostly a mistery even today.

Even today, there are Indian bladesmiths making crucible and presumably following precisely the same old crucible process like their forerunners, yet the result is at best sham, but in most cases monosteel.

ariel · 14th December 2016, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Ariel!

I think your logic is correct... up to a point.

You seem to miss the part that not all crucible steel is wootz. So not all the steel produced in India through crucible process has necessarily resulted in wootz.

So yes, wootz is crucible but crucible is not wootz..

I have mentioned it in the penultimate paragraph. You must have missed it.

mariusgmioc · 15th December 2016, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I have mentioned it in the penultimate paragraph. You must have missed it.

Nope, I didn't miss it, but you are inferring that the rule is that anything that is crucible is wootz, and if it is not wootz, then it must be an accident of some sort ("error of manufacture" as you name it). When in fact wootz is the result of a more elaborate process than ordinary crucible.

So the rule is that crucible is simply a method of obtaining monosteel.

If you want to get wootz, you need to do more than just follow the crucible process.

ariel · 15th December 2016, 12:26 PM

I know it. I simplified the argument to avoid going on a tangent.

How about that: wootz can be obtained only by using a crucible, and that was the methodology routinely used in India.

Any deviation from the optimal process, whether accidental, intentional or a shortcut would result in monosteel as a final product.

Now let's go back to the original question.

Richard G · 15th December 2016, 12:54 PM

Has anyone else noticed how many of the common and cheap horn handled Kurdish daggers have a watered\wootz blade? Anyone know why this should be?
Regards
Richard

ariel · 15th December 2016, 01:22 PM

My guess because wootz was plentiful.
The low efficiency of the process was compensated by the simplicity and low cost of establishing the enterprise in any village with easy access to iron ore.

That's exactly what I was talking about:-)

mariusgmioc · 15th December 2016, 05:07 PM

Definitely wootz was plentiful, as it is demonstrated by the relative abundance of surviving wootz-bladed weapons, from India to Turkey.

Most Kurdish daggers have Persian blades, and come from a period for which wootz was the standard, then they were passed on from generation to generation, while changing hilts and scabbards.

Yet, now despite all technological progress, advanced metalurgy and intensive research, there isn't a single bladesmith (not even Ivan Kirpichev or Zaqro Nonikashvili) capable to consistently produce wootz displaying the same mesmerizing watering like the antique original.

15th December 2016, 12:26 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I know it. I simplified the argument to avoid going on a tangent. How about that: wootz can be obtained only by using a crucible, and that was the methodology routinely used in India. Any deviation from the optimal process, whether accidental, intentional or a shortcut would result in monosteel as a final product. Now let's go back to the original question. Last edited by ariel; 15th December 2016 at 01:11 PM.

15th December 2016, 12:54 PM	#5
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	Has anyone else noticed how many of the common and cheap horn handled Kurdish daggers have a watered\wootz blade? Anyone know why this should be? Regards Richard

15th December 2016, 01:22 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My guess because wootz was plentiful. The low efficiency of the process was compensated by the simplicity and low cost of establishing the enterprise in any village with easy access to iron ore. That's exactly what I was talking about:-)

15th December 2016, 05:07 PM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Definitely wootz was plentiful, as it is demonstrated by the relative abundance of surviving wootz-bladed weapons, from India to Turkey. Most Kurdish daggers have Persian blades, and come from a period for which wootz was the standard, then they were passed on from generation to generation, while changing hilts and scabbards. Yet, now despite all technological progress, advanced metalurgy and intensive research, there isn't a single bladesmith (not even Ivan Kirpichev or Zaqro Nonikashvili) capable to consistently produce wootz displaying the same mesmerizing watering like the antique original.