Qama - purposely bent grip ?

ariel · 2nd December 2016, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

another thought, how is the tang held in the grip? if a thermal cutlers cement was used, high desert heat &/or sun may have softened the resin allowing the movement, which then hardened in more amenable temperatures.

That would be possible only with single-piece handles that necessarily used some kind of cement.

But this one uses rivets. Those do not melt :-)

ariel · 2nd December 2016, 12:20 PM

Jim,
There were several articles in Russian sources discussing manners of Kindjal use.
To put it shortly:

During intra-tribal duels, stabbing was forbidden because of its letality and subsequent retaliations and blood feuds by the family of the deceased. Thus, augmenting slashing/ cutting function of the kindjal would run contrary to the principle of "non-letality" and increase the obligatory fine slapped on the "victor". Also, stabbing was officially frown upon as dishonorable: it was viewed as used only by thieves.

Hunting and real wars removed that limitation: kill, kill, kill.

So far, so good:-)

In real life, however, popular lore and accounts of witnesses were replete with instances of stabbing. As noted by you, cutting and slashing are natural only for sabers.

I would be grateful to Oliver for providing examples of Caucasian kindjals with handles deliberately angled parallel to the plane of the blade ( like the above example): I haven't seen any. There were many "perpendicular" ones, and I referred to them above.

I fully agree with him on the jeweled one, and think that the original one shown here was also accidentally deformed.

Jim McDougall · 2nd December 2016, 06:49 PM

Ariel,
Thank you for these additional notes regarding kindjhal use, and will add to my notes. I do recall a quote by Pushkin, an avid duelist, which I think was in "Sabres of Paradise" (Leslie Blanche) noting that the thrust was not honorable or to that effect.
While tempting to consider the 'malle perce' or needle like point on many kindjhals and of course many Tatar sabres (ordynka), to be intended for thrust....it seems more likely for slashing cuts.

What you say makes perfect sense as far as deliberately augmenting hilt orientation as discussed would be considered unseemly as far as weapon use for dueling such as with kindjhals, such restrictions would not apply with sabres and cavalry swords such as the pallasch I noted. As you note, in warfare there are no 'rules' despite romantic notions of many writers.

I completely agree on the disposition of the examples of kindjhal discussed here in the thread, both with unintended cant of hilt present.
My notes on angled or canted hilts was simply informational as far as instances where hilts were deliberately postured in this way, and not directly relevant to these examples.

I also would consider it interesting to know more on kindjhal examples which indeed had this hilt feature intentionally fashioned, which as you well note, would seem to be anomalies.

2nd December 2016, 12:20 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, There were several articles in Russian sources discussing manners of Kindjal use. To put it shortly: During intra-tribal duels, stabbing was forbidden because of its letality and subsequent retaliations and blood feuds by the family of the deceased. Thus, augmenting slashing/ cutting function of the kindjal would run contrary to the principle of "non-letality" and increase the obligatory fine slapped on the "victor". Also, stabbing was officially frown upon as dishonorable: it was viewed as used only by thieves. Hunting and real wars removed that limitation: kill, kill, kill. So far, so good:-) In real life, however, popular lore and accounts of witnesses were replete with instances of stabbing. As noted by you, cutting and slashing are natural only for sabers. I would be grateful to Oliver for providing examples of Caucasian kindjals with handles deliberately angled parallel to the plane of the blade ( like the above example): I haven't seen any. There were many "perpendicular" ones, and I referred to them above. I fully agree with him on the jeweled one, and think that the original one shown here was also accidentally deformed.

2nd December 2016, 06:49 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Ariel, Thank you for these additional notes regarding kindjhal use, and will add to my notes. I do recall a quote by Pushkin, an avid duelist, which I think was in "Sabres of Paradise" (Leslie Blanche) noting that the thrust was not honorable or to that effect. While tempting to consider the 'malle perce' or needle like point on many kindjhals and of course many Tatar sabres (ordynka), to be intended for thrust....it seems more likely for slashing cuts. What you say makes perfect sense as far as deliberately augmenting hilt orientation as discussed would be considered unseemly as far as weapon use for dueling such as with kindjhals, such restrictions would not apply with sabres and cavalry swords such as the pallasch I noted. As you note, in warfare there are no 'rules' despite romantic notions of many writers. I completely agree on the disposition of the examples of kindjhal discussed here in the thread, both with unintended cant of hilt present. My notes on angled or canted hilts was simply informational as far as instances where hilts were deliberately postured in this way, and not directly relevant to these examples. I also would consider it interesting to know more on kindjhal examples which indeed had this hilt feature intentionally fashioned, which as you well note, would seem to be anomalies.