Marks on Walloon sword for id.

Jim McDougall · 13th November 2016, 07:28 PM

Jasper,
It does seem according to what I have in notes that many Walloons indeed had Solingen blades, but were assembled in Koln. The crowned triple 'X' is the Amsterdam city control mark and perhaps some of the blades produced might have included that stamp if specifically for that chamber (of the 6) in Holland.
This is compellingly in accord with the running wolf mark on the blade, however I am curious on the larger number of blades which were produced in Solingen using the spurious SAHAGUM name. It seems that these typically were destined northward, and in some cases seemed to suggest almost a 'brand' in the manner that ANDREA FERARA blades were destined for the Scots.
I have seen noted that the distinctive four petal 'kleeblatt' is characteristically on the quillon on virtually all Dutch Walloons.

I am wondering if this four petal stamp is indeed on all, if not most Dutch Walloons, and would this convention have been placed at assembly in Koln along with the stamp or mark of the intended chamber to which the sword was destined?

If Solingen smiths did go to Holland, where might they have worked? or is their departure in the groups of smiths leaving Solingen not accurate?

I appreciate your help on these questions as it helps update and correct my notes, which are admittedly often a mess.

cornelistromp · 14th November 2016, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Jasper,
It does seem according to what I have in notes that many Walloons indeed had Solingen blades, but were assembled in Koln. The crowned triple 'X' is the Amsterdam city control mark and perhaps some of the blades produced might have included that stamp if specifically for that chamber (of the 6) in Holland.
This is compellingly in accord with the running wolf mark on the blade, however I am curious on the larger number of blades which were produced in Solingen using the spurious SAHAGUM name. It seems that these typically were destined northward, and in some cases seemed to suggest almost a 'brand' in the manner that ANDREA FERARA blades were destined for the Scots.
I have seen noted that the distinctive four petal 'kleeblatt' is characteristically on the quillon on virtually all Dutch Walloons.

I am wondering if this four petal stamp is indeed on all, if not most Dutch Walloons, and would this convention have been placed at assembly in Koln along with the stamp or mark of the intended chamber to which the sword was destined?

If Solingen smiths did go to Holland, where might they have worked? or is their departure in the groups of smiths leaving Solingen not accurate?

I appreciate your help on these questions as it helps update and correct my notes, which are admittedly often a mess.

Hi Jim,

JP Puype dedicates the manufacture of this epee wallone to Solingen,see Attachement, Köln is very interesting, do you also have support for this.

all dutch epee wallones have the four petalled flower and the Amsterdam mark. other marks on this dutch type are not known to me
one exception is known to me, an epee Wallone ex Visser collection with Toledo TO mark, a running wolf and 1414 inscription, maybe the blade is a replacment blade.

I have no record of solingen blacksmith who went to the Netherlands, I know a few who went to spain. (a much better climate )

but... there was a lively arms trade between Amsterdam, solingen and Passau.

best,
Jasper

Jim McDougall · 14th November 2016, 02:16 PM

Hi Jasper,
Thank you so much for these responses and important information!
Along with Jean Luc, I am always amazed (and envious) at the detailed knowledge you share on so many aspects of these European swords.

In retracing notes which prompted my comment on the departure of many Solingen smiths to other countries, typically citing the disastrous "Thirty Years War" (1618-48) as one of the reasons, I find that Holland was not demonstrably among the places they went. It is however important to note that England was one location (Hounslow) and as Aylward (" The Small Sword in England") has described, there were profound connections between these countries (politically and therefore other as well). Though this really has no bearing on production of the Dutch blades discussed here, it is important to note the similarities and cross influences of English and Dutch 'walloons'.
These are well described in "British Military Swords" (Stuart Mowbray, 2013) .

In that book, Mowbray comments on the SAHAGUM marking which I mentioned earlier, and that name on these 17th c blades almost invariably suggests it is Dutch (p.91).

The excerpt you have attached here regarding the Amsterdam city mark is outstanding!! Thank you. Which reference is it from? so that I may add to my notes (which clearly need revamping) .

On the Koln (Cologne) reference, I could not locate the specific source, but in further rechecking think that it was referring to the fact that while Solingen indeed produced blades from earlier times, there were restrictions on the assembly of finished weapons. Apparently these were put together in Cologne and from there exported.....thence often termed 'Cologne swords' .
Source: "History of the Solingen Cutlery Industry", Siegfried Rosenkaimer, in 'Blades Guide to Knives and Their Values'.

Naturally this does not specify that Dutch swords alone, or in any fashion were assembled in Cologne, but may have been the source of my suggestion from notes .

Regarding the anomalous Walloon sans the four petal quillon mark, and the running wolf, TO mark and 1414....
While we have it seems long thought that these crowned TO shields were to represent Toledo, Mowbray (op. cit. p250) discusses a rapier in England with one of these marks. Here he claims that this particular mark, rather than representing (other than Toledo) a legitimate mark used in CAINO, a blade producing center in Brescia, northern Italy .

The 1414 is of course a palindrome with talismanically 'lucky' numbers along with the omnipresent 'running wolf'. While of course suggesting Solingen, where these were commonly on blades, it is interesting that they are combined with the TO mark and as noted, associated in English context as described in Mowbray .

The blade is as you suggest, probably a replacement and offers some interesting context.

Thank you again,
Jim

cornelistromp · 14th November 2016, 03:45 PM

@Jean Luc, what is written in the fuller.... Sahagun?

@Jim
It is possible mowbray refers to Dutch because Sahagun and other spellings of it occur on these wallone swords, nevertheless they are made in Germany.

Cerjak · 14th November 2016, 04:25 PM

jasper,

Yes with good eyes no doubt it's Sahagun !
I will pm you the hd pictures.Thank you Japer you made a complete analysis for this sword .We even have the original draw !
Best
Jean-Luc

Jim McDougall · 14th November 2016, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

@Jean Luc, what is written in the fuller.... Sahagun?

@Jim
It is possible mowbray refers to Dutch because Sahagun and other spellings of it occur on these wallone swords, nevertheless they are made in Germany.

Actually Jasper, as I have continued searching throughout the morning here for hours now, I think that is exactly right! Most other sources and reading have consistently stated these were made in Germany FOR the Dutch.
Even when the French finally adopted these 'Walloon' swords into their M1679 regulation patterns, they were acquiring them THROUGH the Amsterdam arms brokers who had them from Solingen.

I found some detail suggesting that the 'kleeblatt' (clover leaf or quatrefoil) on the quillon may have been placed by the French as swords being sent to their allies in campaigns of latter 17th c. but it seems that it was indeed placed in Amsterdam.

It does seem consistant to me that the SAHAGUM on the blade is very much Dutch, which makes sense as Spanish quality must have been firmly established in the Netherlands during Spanish rule. However it seems a paradox as the Dutch detested 'Papal' rule.

It is amazing how much history is learned with these faithful old swords as our guides!!!

PS I found the page you attached in the Leger Museum article, thank you again for including it before.

cornelistromp · 15th November 2016, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

PS I found the page you attached in the Leger Museum article, thank you again for including it before.

i took it from JP Puype -blanke wapens p 47, the original drawing is from Michel petard.

best,
jasper

Jim McDougall · 19th November 2016, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

i took it from JP Puype -blanke wapens p 47, the original drawing is from Michel petard.

best,
jasper

Thank you Jasper, much appreciated.

werecow · 12th August 2022, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Hi Jim,

JP Puype dedicates the manufacture of this epee wallone to Solingen,see Attachement, Köln is very interesting, do you also have support for this.

all dutch epee wallones have the four petalled flower and the Amsterdam mark. other marks on this dutch type are not known to me
one exception is known to me, an epee Wallone ex Visser collection with Toledo TO mark, a running wolf and 1414 inscription, maybe the blade is a replacment blade.

I bought a Walloon sword of this type recently (with a bit of help from ulfberth who helped confirm its authenticity), right after I saw the one at the Lakenhal museum here in Leiden. A bit more patina than the one in this thread, but most of it superficial, and I kind of like this look (and I like that it's quite sturdy).

One thing I found interesting, and the reason I'm adding it to this thread, is that it is lacking the kleeblatt on the quillons. It is still rated tripple-x, however

, and has "xxx S A H A G V M xx" markings and of course the Wolf of Passau on both sides.

(As usual, sorry about the slightly jittery pictures. I only have my phone's camera and it seems to be literally impossible to take a picture that isn't motion blurred or out of focus.)

fernando · 12th August 2022, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

... I only have my phone's camera and it seems to be literally impossible to take a picture that isn't motion blurred or out of focus.)...

That depends on one's phone

.

14th November 2016, 04:25 PM	#5
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	jasper, Yes with good eyes no doubt it's Sahagun ! I will pm you the hd pictures.Thank you Japer you made a complete analysis for this sword .We even have the original draw ! Best Jean-Luc Attached Images

13th November 2016, 07:28 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Jasper, It does seem according to what I have in notes that many Walloons indeed had Solingen blades, but were assembled in Koln. The crowned triple 'X' is the Amsterdam city control mark and perhaps some of the blades produced might have included that stamp if specifically for that chamber (of the 6) in Holland. This is compellingly in accord with the running wolf mark on the blade, however I am curious on the larger number of blades which were produced in Solingen using the spurious SAHAGUM name. It seems that these typically were destined northward, and in some cases seemed to suggest almost a 'brand' in the manner that ANDREA FERARA blades were destined for the Scots. I have seen noted that the distinctive four petal 'kleeblatt' is characteristically on the quillon on virtually all Dutch Walloons. I am wondering if this four petal stamp is indeed on all, if not most Dutch Walloons, and would this convention have been placed at assembly in Koln along with the stamp or mark of the intended chamber to which the sword was destined? If Solingen smiths did go to Holland, where might they have worked? or is their departure in the groups of smiths leaving Solingen not accurate? I appreciate your help on these questions as it helps update and correct my notes, which are admittedly often a mess.

14th November 2016, 02:16 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Hi Jasper, Thank you so much for these responses and important information! Along with Jean Luc, I am always amazed (and envious) at the detailed knowledge you share on so many aspects of these European swords. In retracing notes which prompted my comment on the departure of many Solingen smiths to other countries, typically citing the disastrous "Thirty Years War" (1618-48) as one of the reasons, I find that Holland was not demonstrably among the places they went. It is however important to note that England was one location (Hounslow) and as Aylward (" The Small Sword in England") has described, there were profound connections between these countries (politically and therefore other as well). Though this really has no bearing on production of the Dutch blades discussed here, it is important to note the similarities and cross influences of English and Dutch 'walloons'. These are well described in "British Military Swords" (Stuart Mowbray, 2013) . In that book, Mowbray comments on the SAHAGUM marking which I mentioned earlier, and that name on these 17th c blades almost invariably suggests it is Dutch (p.91). The excerpt you have attached here regarding the Amsterdam city mark is outstanding!! Thank you. Which reference is it from? so that I may add to my notes (which clearly need revamping) . On the Koln (Cologne) reference, I could not locate the specific source, but in further rechecking think that it was referring to the fact that while Solingen indeed produced blades from earlier times, there were restrictions on the assembly of finished weapons. Apparently these were put together in Cologne and from there exported.....thence often termed 'Cologne swords' . Source: "History of the Solingen Cutlery Industry", Siegfried Rosenkaimer, in 'Blades Guide to Knives and Their Values'. Naturally this does not specify that Dutch swords alone, or in any fashion were assembled in Cologne, but may have been the source of my suggestion from notes . Regarding the anomalous Walloon sans the four petal quillon mark, and the running wolf, TO mark and 1414.... While we have it seems long thought that these crowned TO shields were to represent Toledo, Mowbray (op. cit. p250) discusses a rapier in England with one of these marks. Here he claims that this particular mark, rather than representing (other than Toledo) a legitimate mark used in CAINO, a blade producing center in Brescia, northern Italy . The 1414 is of course a palindrome with talismanically 'lucky' numbers along with the omnipresent 'running wolf'. While of course suggesting Solingen, where these were commonly on blades, it is interesting that they are combined with the TO mark and as noted, associated in English context as described in Mowbray . The blade is as you suggest, probably a replacement and offers some interesting context. Thank you again, Jim

14th November 2016, 03:45 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	@Jean Luc, what is written in the fuller.... Sahagun? @Jim It is possible mowbray refers to Dutch because Sahagun and other spellings of it occur on these wallone swords, nevertheless they are made in Germany.