Marks on Walloon sword for id.

corrado26 · 12th November 2016, 01:48 PM

I think the mark under a crown with threes stars/crosses is probably the townmark of Amsterdam/NL
corrado26

mariusgmioc · 12th November 2016, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

I think the mark under a crown with threes stars/crosses is probably the townmark of Amsterdam/NL
corrado26

Exactly!

Rotate the image 90 degrees counterclockwise and you get a shield with triple "x" and a crown (partially ground) on top.

Amsterdam.

Jim McDougall · 12th November 2016, 04:08 PM

I think the mark on the quillon is termed the kleeblatt and represents a clover, but need to get into notes for more. In any case it was often on the quillons of these Dutch swords. The running wolf is interesting as there were a number of Solingen smiths who left and went to the Netherlands as well as those going to Spain, England, Russia.

Cerjak · 12th November 2016, 05:56 PM

Thank you all for your answer about the marks so it is a dutch wallone ,

Best
Cerjak

cornelistromp · 13th November 2016, 12:21 PM

The belief is that these walloon swords are made in Solingen, as evidenced by the fact that some swords have Solingen maker marks.
This is supported by the running wolf, typical for Solingen in the first half of the 17th century.

almost all walloon swords of this type bear an Amsterdam town mark and a flower on the quillon final. This flower mark can be a mark of Solingen Smith.
fe Johannes Kirschbaum has a three petalled flower.

most of those walloon swords are signed with Sahagun or misspellings like
sahagom sachgom Sahacun ea but not made by this famous swordsmith of toledo.the name Sahagun was only used to designate a certain Quality.

These swords were made on commission for amsterdam arms Dealers in great numbers. It is an assumption that the French captured These swords
in 1672-73 in the Netherlands and introduced the epee Wallone in the French army.

a nice Detail is that the pommel is hollow and made of two halves.

best,
jasper

Jim McDougall · 13th November 2016, 07:28 PM

Jasper,
It does seem according to what I have in notes that many Walloons indeed had Solingen blades, but were assembled in Koln. The crowned triple 'X' is the Amsterdam city control mark and perhaps some of the blades produced might have included that stamp if specifically for that chamber (of the 6) in Holland.
This is compellingly in accord with the running wolf mark on the blade, however I am curious on the larger number of blades which were produced in Solingen using the spurious SAHAGUM name. It seems that these typically were destined northward, and in some cases seemed to suggest almost a 'brand' in the manner that ANDREA FERARA blades were destined for the Scots.
I have seen noted that the distinctive four petal 'kleeblatt' is characteristically on the quillon on virtually all Dutch Walloons.

I am wondering if this four petal stamp is indeed on all, if not most Dutch Walloons, and would this convention have been placed at assembly in Koln along with the stamp or mark of the intended chamber to which the sword was destined?

If Solingen smiths did go to Holland, where might they have worked? or is their departure in the groups of smiths leaving Solingen not accurate?

I appreciate your help on these questions as it helps update and correct my notes, which are admittedly often a mess.

cornelistromp · 14th November 2016, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Jasper,
It does seem according to what I have in notes that many Walloons indeed had Solingen blades, but were assembled in Koln. The crowned triple 'X' is the Amsterdam city control mark and perhaps some of the blades produced might have included that stamp if specifically for that chamber (of the 6) in Holland.
This is compellingly in accord with the running wolf mark on the blade, however I am curious on the larger number of blades which were produced in Solingen using the spurious SAHAGUM name. It seems that these typically were destined northward, and in some cases seemed to suggest almost a 'brand' in the manner that ANDREA FERARA blades were destined for the Scots.
I have seen noted that the distinctive four petal 'kleeblatt' is characteristically on the quillon on virtually all Dutch Walloons.

I am wondering if this four petal stamp is indeed on all, if not most Dutch Walloons, and would this convention have been placed at assembly in Koln along with the stamp or mark of the intended chamber to which the sword was destined?

If Solingen smiths did go to Holland, where might they have worked? or is their departure in the groups of smiths leaving Solingen not accurate?

I appreciate your help on these questions as it helps update and correct my notes, which are admittedly often a mess.

Hi Jim,

JP Puype dedicates the manufacture of this epee wallone to Solingen,see Attachement, Köln is very interesting, do you also have support for this.

all dutch epee wallones have the four petalled flower and the Amsterdam mark. other marks on this dutch type are not known to me
one exception is known to me, an epee Wallone ex Visser collection with Toledo TO mark, a running wolf and 1414 inscription, maybe the blade is a replacment blade.

I have no record of solingen blacksmith who went to the Netherlands, I know a few who went to spain. (a much better climate )

but... there was a lively arms trade between Amsterdam, solingen and Passau.

best,
Jasper

Cerjak · 13th November 2016, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

The belief is that these walloon swords are made in Solingen, as evidenced by the fact that some swords have Solingen maker marks.
This is supported by the running wolf, typical for Solingen in the first half of the 17th century.

almost all walloon swords of this type bear an Amsterdam town mark and a flower on the quillon final. This flower mark can be a mark of Solingen Smith.
fe Johannes Kirschbaum has a three petalled flower.

most of those walloon swords are signed with Sahagun or misspellings like
sahagom sachgom Sahacun ea but not made by this famous swordsmith of toledo.the name Sahagun was only used to designate a certain Quality.

These swords were made on commission for amsterdam arms Dealers in great numbers. It is an assumption that the French captured These swords
in 1672-73 in the Netherlands and introduced the epee Wallone in the French army.

a nice Detail is that the pommel is hollow and made of two halves.

best,
jasper

Jasper,
Thank you for your well detailed comment.
"a nice Detail is that the pommel is hollow and made of two halves."
How you can see it ?
best
Jean-Luc

cornelistromp · 14th November 2016, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Jasper,
Thank you for your well detailed comment.
"a nice Detail is that the pommel is hollow and made of two halves."
How you can see it ?
best
Jean-Luc

Jean-Luc,

by xray or you can knock on it.

12th November 2016, 01:48 PM	#1
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	I think the mark under a crown with threes stars/crosses is probably the townmark of Amsterdam/NL corrado26

12th November 2016, 04:08 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	I think the mark on the quillon is termed the kleeblatt and represents a clover, but need to get into notes for more. In any case it was often on the quillons of these Dutch swords. The running wolf is interesting as there were a number of Solingen smiths who left and went to the Netherlands as well as those going to Spain, England, Russia.

12th November 2016, 05:56 PM	#4
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Thank you all for your answer about the marks so it is a dutch wallone , Best Cerjak

13th November 2016, 12:21 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	The belief is that these walloon swords are made in Solingen, as evidenced by the fact that some swords have Solingen maker marks. This is supported by the running wolf, typical for Solingen in the first half of the 17th century. almost all walloon swords of this type bear an Amsterdam town mark and a flower on the quillon final. This flower mark can be a mark of Solingen Smith. fe Johannes Kirschbaum has a three petalled flower. most of those walloon swords are signed with Sahagun or misspellings like sahagom sachgom Sahacun ea but not made by this famous swordsmith of toledo.the name Sahagun was only used to designate a certain Quality. These swords were made on commission for amsterdam arms Dealers in great numbers. It is an assumption that the French captured These swords in 1672-73 in the Netherlands and introduced the epee Wallone in the French army. a nice Detail is that the pommel is hollow and made of two halves. best, jasper

13th November 2016, 07:28 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Jasper, It does seem according to what I have in notes that many Walloons indeed had Solingen blades, but were assembled in Koln. The crowned triple 'X' is the Amsterdam city control mark and perhaps some of the blades produced might have included that stamp if specifically for that chamber (of the 6) in Holland. This is compellingly in accord with the running wolf mark on the blade, however I am curious on the larger number of blades which were produced in Solingen using the spurious SAHAGUM name. It seems that these typically were destined northward, and in some cases seemed to suggest almost a 'brand' in the manner that ANDREA FERARA blades were destined for the Scots. I have seen noted that the distinctive four petal 'kleeblatt' is characteristically on the quillon on virtually all Dutch Walloons. I am wondering if this four petal stamp is indeed on all, if not most Dutch Walloons, and would this convention have been placed at assembly in Koln along with the stamp or mark of the intended chamber to which the sword was destined? If Solingen smiths did go to Holland, where might they have worked? or is their departure in the groups of smiths leaving Solingen not accurate? I appreciate your help on these questions as it helps update and correct my notes, which are admittedly often a mess.