shinsa, or adapting the japanese experience

Rivkin · 13th January 2005, 03:29 PM

However I did mean to offend every single collector of japanese weapons, I apologize if it seemed this way: I merely wanted to point out the problems that drove me from the Nihonto community.

Lee · 14th January 2005, 11:49 AM

In my personal experience, true scholars in a field usually behave as gentlemen and are willing, if not eager, to share their knowledge in their field of expertise and to explain the basis of their observations. And there are many fine scholars in the field of the Japanese sword who do so. Of course, as with anything, there are constraints, such as time, and barriers get erected in response to an unending stream of "I want to be the greatest swordsmith in the history of man; how do I start to make a sword?" inquiries.

In my opinion, formed in the 1970s, too much of the Nihonto community in the US grew up out of a 'greasy gun dealer' mentality of using their knowledge to buy valuable swords from a veteran or his widow at a gun show; I personally have seen one case in the early 1980s where $125 was turned around for $10,000 within a month. Presumably, these easy pickings are fading away and hopefully in time so will the value of withholding of sharing of knowledge to gain economic advantage.

Appraisals and other documentation of expert opinions are most valuable, obviously, to those not in a position to judge for themselves, such as starting collectors and investors.

...more to come

Rivkin · 14th January 2005, 03:46 PM

I probably have to be more specific - I don't mind people not answering questions. We all have jobs, and asking for someone's time is just like asking for a favor.

What I do mind is when people instead of discussion give you a lecture on how great the Nihonto. I do mind the self-promotion aspect, and everything that comes with it.

Yes, people still have drems of a vet hero estate sale, where you can get really nice koto sword for 100$, but this time moves away as we speak. In fact I think Nihonto probably is less profitable today than some other swords.

Concerning certificates - there is a possibility of a person buying a sword because it's just such an interesting thing, even through it is not what he collects. In such cases, far too often happening with me, I would gladly spent 25-150$ for a professional, certified appraisal.

Lee · 14th January 2005, 06:39 PM

Rivkin, to be honest, I have seen the same extremes of chauvinism among some high end European arms collectors, who, in turn, look 'down their nose' at Japanese swords. To me, however, the reality is that many cultures have produced fine edged and non-edged weapons, and I enjoy most all of them for what they are. Indeed, each is a product of the environment it was created in and is optimized for its purpose in that context, so I doubt a truly accurate answer can be given about which is better or best.

continuing ...Appraisals and other documentation of expert opinions are most valuable, obviously, to those not in a position to judge for themselves, such as starting collectors and investors otherwise not interested in the objects. I understand that someone performing an apprasial undertakes a fiduciary responsibility not only to the person who commissioned the appraisal but potentially to later buyers relying on such a document. For that reason, doing an appraisal carries with it a lot of potential liability, which is why, if one looks at the 'legalese' page of this website, you will find that "no warranty is made concerning the accuracy of such material, and no responsibility or liability is assumed for any use made of this information."

I have been fooled too many times by pictures, even pictures of excellent quality, and will personally never issue a binding opinion on the basis of such an observation by proxy. Sometimes I (like most here) will risk the cash and buy something from an InterNet auction or webstore, but it is somewhat less daunting if I am risking a known quantity of my own cash.

Perhaps the presently very informal group we have formed about the annual Timonium gathering will eventually organize itself and form 'shinsa' committees to issue evaluations on ethnographic arms. Even then, it would probably be essential that the actual items be brought or sent for evaluation by such a committee.

I expect that there may be some forum members who do, in fact, issue professional appraisals for a fee and you may wish to post in the swap forum asking that they advise you if they are prepared to offer services in the particular area you desire.

Federico · 14th January 2005, 07:02 PM

I see the merit in standardization of evaluation, and in theory it sounds like a decent proposal. Particularly for new collectors whose knowledge of what is real, current pricing, etc... is limited. Or even for more experienced collectors to get a feel for what other's are thinking about pricing, and what constitutes quality.

However, as has been expressed already, I fear in practical application such standardization will ultimately have more negative attributes than positive.

Such as a dramatic increase in pricing.

An increased tendency to the chauvanism/elitism as expressed in some instances in the more established Nihonto community.

And particularly since Ethnographic weaponry is such a broad, and often ill-studied field a possible hardening in theoretical pedagogy that may create myths, that due to a pile of "shinsa" papers behind them, will be difficult to un-trench as new research appears. Even in our informal community here, we have often had strong debate over changing theories of origin and development, I can only imagine how much more difficult these debates would become if weak theories are propagated via hundreds of "shinsa" papers, because at the time of evaluation these theories were all that was available.

Anyways, I know one of the joys for me, when it comes to collecting Ethnographic weaponry, and one of the main reasons I have stayed away from more established collecting circles, such as Nihonto and European swords (well wouldnt say no if someone wished to donate a nice piece

Has been the informality of collecting. I dont need to be some grand wazir who has spend X number of years collecting/studying to have an appreciation for ethnographic pieces. I also dont need to be a millionaire to collect (and as someone who is below the poverty level in income this fact is very handy). There is also freedom to do my own research, and come up with my own conclusions. While we have strong debate on the forum, and we often dis-agree, in the end we are collectors voicing our opinions. There is no hard fast laws being set in stone by our debate, only additions to the discourse.

This is also part of the big reason I favor the EEWRS over many other "sword" discussion forums, particularly since attitudes and opinions are not as entrenched. I still feel that the EEWRS holds a high level of scholarly debate. While not perfect, and not necessarily fully entrenched in academic precedence or form (I do see merit in Ruel's critical thinking thread and acknowledge that I myself am guilty of not being as critical here as I would be in an academic setting), in comparisson to many other circles is still leaps and bounds ahead. It would be nice if we could all have access to provenanced collections, and be able to draw our opinions off of first hand research, but the reality is we are mere collectors who are indulging in a hobby. And in that regard, it is amazing at the level to which we can and have been able to draw theoretical research.

tom hyle · 14th January 2005, 09:36 PM

Very well said.

Rivkin · 14th January 2005, 10:30 PM

Snobism and elitism are basic human behavior, so I've seen it appearing in all societies.

On legal responsibility - one can adopt NHTK strategy, by which one writes in papers "it is our opinion that this item ... ". Then the only way to sue is to prove that this opinion is not only wrong, but it was intentionally wrong. As far as I remember such thing was upheld in court only once when alleged director of alleged NBHTK-2 Eguchi allegedly misattributed his tanto, which he sold later for 50,000$

.

I perfectly understand the problems with appraisal being introduced into community. Before this discussion I believed them to be minor, now when I think about this may be the real thing.

P.S. I'm surprised to know that there is such thing as organized European weapons collectors - I know there are some European militaria swords collectors, but I've never heard of a _living_ forum (swordforum with 1 post per month in its euro section is not really alive) or meetings of European sword collectors.

Which basically is due to my ignorance, but is there really a European sword collectors society a-la Nihonto ?

14th January 2005, 11:49 AM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 940	In my personal experience, true scholars in a field usually behave as gentlemen and are willing, if not eager, to share their knowledge in their field of expertise and to explain the basis of their observations. And there are many fine scholars in the field of the Japanese sword who do so. Of course, as with anything, there are constraints, such as time, and barriers get erected in response to an unending stream of "I want to be the greatest swordsmith in the history of man; how do I start to make a sword?" inquiries. In my opinion, formed in the 1970s, too much of the Nihonto community in the US grew up out of a 'greasy gun dealer' mentality of using their knowledge to buy valuable swords from a veteran or his widow at a gun show; I personally have seen one case in the early 1980s where $125 was turned around for $10,000 within a month. Presumably, these easy pickings are fading away and hopefully in time so will the value of withholding of sharing of knowledge to gain economic advantage. Appraisals and other documentation of expert opinions are most valuable, obviously, to those not in a position to judge for themselves, such as starting collectors and investors. ...more to come Last edited by Lee Jones; 14th January 2005 at 01:04 PM. Reason: To finish the incomplete post

13th January 2005, 03:29 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	However I did mean to offend every single collector of japanese weapons, I apologize if it seemed this way: I merely wanted to point out the problems that drove me from the Nihonto community.

14th January 2005, 03:46 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I probably have to be more specific - I don't mind people not answering questions. We all have jobs, and asking for someone's time is just like asking for a favor. What I do mind is when people instead of discussion give you a lecture on how great the Nihonto. I do mind the self-promotion aspect, and everything that comes with it. Yes, people still have drems of a vet hero estate sale, where you can get really nice koto sword for 100$, but this time moves away as we speak. In fact I think Nihonto probably is less profitable today than some other swords. Concerning certificates - there is a possibility of a person buying a sword because it's just such an interesting thing, even through it is not what he collects. In such cases, far too often happening with me, I would gladly spent 25-150$ for a professional, certified appraisal.

14th January 2005, 06:39 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 940	Rivkin, to be honest, I have seen the same extremes of chauvinism among some high end European arms collectors, who, in turn, look 'down their nose' at Japanese swords. To me, however, the reality is that many cultures have produced fine edged and non-edged weapons, and I enjoy most all of them for what they are. Indeed, each is a product of the environment it was created in and is optimized for its purpose in that context, so I doubt a truly accurate answer can be given about which is better or best. continuing ...Appraisals and other documentation of expert opinions are most valuable, obviously, to those not in a position to judge for themselves, such as starting collectors and investors otherwise not interested in the objects. I understand that someone performing an apprasial undertakes a fiduciary responsibility not only to the person who commissioned the appraisal but potentially to later buyers relying on such a document. For that reason, doing an appraisal carries with it a lot of potential liability, which is why, if one looks at the 'legalese' page of this website, you will find that "no warranty is made concerning the accuracy of such material, and no responsibility or liability is assumed for any use made of this information." I have been fooled too many times by pictures, even pictures of excellent quality, and will personally never issue a binding opinion on the basis of such an observation by proxy. Sometimes I (like most here) will risk the cash and buy something from an InterNet auction or webstore, but it is somewhat less daunting if I am risking a known quantity of my own cash. Perhaps the presently very informal group we have formed about the annual Timonium gathering will eventually organize itself and form 'shinsa' committees to issue evaluations on ethnographic arms. Even then, it would probably be essential that the actual items be brought or sent for evaluation by such a committee. I expect that there may be some forum members who do, in fact, issue professional appraisals for a fee and you may wish to post in the swap forum asking that they advise you if they are prepared to offer services in the particular area you desire.

14th January 2005, 07:02 PM	#5
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	I see the merit in standardization of evaluation, and in theory it sounds like a decent proposal. Particularly for new collectors whose knowledge of what is real, current pricing, etc... is limited. Or even for more experienced collectors to get a feel for what other's are thinking about pricing, and what constitutes quality. However, as has been expressed already, I fear in practical application such standardization will ultimately have more negative attributes than positive. Such as a dramatic increase in pricing. An increased tendency to the chauvanism/elitism as expressed in some instances in the more established Nihonto community. And particularly since Ethnographic weaponry is such a broad, and often ill-studied field a possible hardening in theoretical pedagogy that may create myths, that due to a pile of "shinsa" papers behind them, will be difficult to un-trench as new research appears. Even in our informal community here, we have often had strong debate over changing theories of origin and development, I can only imagine how much more difficult these debates would become if weak theories are propagated via hundreds of "shinsa" papers, because at the time of evaluation these theories were all that was available. Anyways, I know one of the joys for me, when it comes to collecting Ethnographic weaponry, and one of the main reasons I have stayed away from more established collecting circles, such as Nihonto and European swords (well wouldnt say no if someone wished to donate a nice piece Has been the informality of collecting. I dont need to be some grand wazir who has spend X number of years collecting/studying to have an appreciation for ethnographic pieces. I also dont need to be a millionaire to collect (and as someone who is below the poverty level in income this fact is very handy). There is also freedom to do my own research, and come up with my own conclusions. While we have strong debate on the forum, and we often dis-agree, in the end we are collectors voicing our opinions. There is no hard fast laws being set in stone by our debate, only additions to the discourse. This is also part of the big reason I favor the EEWRS over many other "sword" discussion forums, particularly since attitudes and opinions are not as entrenched. I still feel that the EEWRS holds a high level of scholarly debate. While not perfect, and not necessarily fully entrenched in academic precedence or form (I do see merit in Ruel's critical thinking thread and acknowledge that I myself am guilty of not being as critical here as I would be in an academic setting), in comparisson to many other circles is still leaps and bounds ahead. It would be nice if we could all have access to provenanced collections, and be able to draw our opinions off of first hand research, but the reality is we are mere collectors who are indulging in a hobby. And in that regard, it is amazing at the level to which we can and have been able to draw theoretical research.

14th January 2005, 09:36 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Very well said.

14th January 2005, 10:30 PM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Snobism and elitism are basic human behavior, so I've seen it appearing in all societies. On legal responsibility - one can adopt NHTK strategy, by which one writes in papers "it is our opinion that this item ... ". Then the only way to sue is to prove that this opinion is not only wrong, but it was intentionally wrong. As far as I remember such thing was upheld in court only once when alleged director of alleged NBHTK-2 Eguchi allegedly misattributed his tanto, which he sold later for 50,000$ . I perfectly understand the problems with appraisal being introduced into community. Before this discussion I believed them to be minor, now when I think about this may be the real thing. P.S. I'm surprised to know that there is such thing as organized European weapons collectors - I know there are some European militaria swords collectors, but I've never heard of a _living_ forum (swordforum with 1 post per month in its euro section is not really alive) or meetings of European sword collectors. Which basically is due to my ignorance, but is there really a European sword collectors society a-la Nihonto ?