The flowers on the tulwar hilts

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th October 2016, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahiim,

The drawings/hilts you are showing are very interesting.
The dravings were often used by goldsmiths to show to customers, so they could choose a decoration for their hilt.
Illustration no 7, have a look at the middle hilt and compare it to the one I show in the catalogue pp. 303-306. These two hilts must have been made at the same workshop. Ibrahiim do you have a better picture of this hilt?
Jens

I dont have your catalogue reference so I dont know... I take it you mean the #4 sketch?... I am in the UK in a few days and will try to get your catalogue. ...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th October 2016, 02:16 PM

Ibrahiim,
I mean the hilt looking like the attached.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th October 2016, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahiim,
I mean the hilt looking like the attached.

Salaams, It is amazing that I have posted one so like yours except mine has a Knuckleguard... I will search to see if there is a better picture meanwhile a few more ...This Tegha has a Tulvar hilt and interesting floral decor whilst on a black background; a Tulvar hilt covered in Script except for a single small flower between the Guard.

The name Tul(var) means flower...and the Afghanistan version is Pul(ouar) . Does this refer to the abundance of floral decoration or give rise to it? On the other hand may the design of the flower shaped pommel have any relation to the hilt/sword name?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th October 2016, 03:56 PM

Some more...The black background from the Caravanna Collection:

Quote"17th Century

Western India - Gujarat, Mughal period (1526-1858)

Steel, gold

Height 18 cm

Tulwar hilt dated to the 17th century, shaped as a bird dated from the 17th century with a hand guard forming the profile of a swan. The entire surface is covered with floral motifs, engraved and inlayed in gold, in the koftgari technique.

Bibl.: Jawaant, 2005, p. 83; Nath Pant, 1978, vol. 3, est. CXX." Unquote.

I note that the swan neck finial of the knuckleguard is almost exactly that of the Afghanistan swan neck...

Jens Nordlunde · 30th October 2016, 04:16 PM

Yes the decoration of the hilts is interesting, and varies from place to place and from time to time according to fashion.
However, what I was thinking of was the flower on top of the disc. Either it is a flower or a sun, or missing all together. I think this is a better pointer than the floral decoration of the hilt.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th October 2016, 05:18 PM

Sorry Richard, I overlooked you mail at first.
Having the head filled with flowers - the right side with roses, and the left side with tulips - I am sure Ariel will understand my stress:-).
You you are right, we did discuss the flowers on top of the disc, but although I find this very interesting, and research should be done, someone else must do it, as I have only one head and two hands, and I have started to research some katar types, which I have wanted to research for a long time. The research is slow, as not much is found about them, and the informations to have, seems to differe quite a bit of for how long time this katar group was used.

I hope you will like the catalogue when you get it:-) - all the best to you all.

Jens

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2016, 05:27 PM

After posting the notes from the article by Stephen Markel, and seeing that apparently in degree, floral motif was used as a dynastic leitmotif by the Mughals, from the time of Shah Jahan onward, it seems that aesthetics also were largely in play.

While Persian poetry and art as well as of course many cultural factors were prevalent in Mughal courts, it seems well established that European influence was also well known and apparently from the 'herbals' of 16thc among such influences. In the attached article from the British Museum,
"Mughal Flower Studies and Their European Inspiration" by J.P.Losty, these cases are discussed, providing insight into aspects of these influences.

It is noted that while the herbals from Europe were primarily from a botanical, rather than aesthetic point of view, it does seem that a certain degree of the character of the illustrations did become notable in Mughal art.
One reference is to the "DARA SHIKOH ALBUM" which is cited as one of the most important artifacts in the museum library.
Dara Shikoh was Shah Jahan's eldest and favorite son (1615-58) who compiled these floral references.
Included is an illustration (attached) of a prince in Persian costume by the 'mysterious' artist Muhammed Khan noted as possibly from the Deccan and engaged by Dara Shikoh when the Emperors court was in Burhanpur in 1630-32.

The arrangement in the vase appears taken somewhat from an Antwerp publication of c1590 (attached) reflecting this influence.

While these references pertain the art in paintings, they were of course the source for floral images which would occur on the hilts of weapons. In the case of the Mughal interpretation, the mix and match assortment of such floral arrangements were not suitable for such motif, however individual flower images were selected and became studies for decoration.

Again, the focus here is on the Mughal decorative motif may be regarded as prevalent on tulwars as they are of course known mostly in that context, it is more difficult to relegate such motifs to Rajput, Sikh and other situations.

I hope this will offer some insight and ideas toward further research on this topic. Please see the attached link below to the full article I noted by Mr. Losty.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th October 2016, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

After posting the notes from the article by Stephen Markel, and seeing that apparently in degree, floral motif was used as a dynastic leitmotif by the Mughals, from the time of Shah Jahan onward, it seems that aesthetics also were largely in play.

While Persian poetry and art as well as of course many cultural factors were prevalent in Mughal courts, it seems well established that European influence was also well known and apparently from the 'herbals' of 16thc among such influences. In the attached article from the British Museum,
"Mughal Flower Studies and Their European Inspiration" by J.P.Losty, these cases are discussed, providing insight into aspects of these influences.

It is noted that while the herbals from Europe were primarily from a botanical, rather than aesthetic point of view, it does seem that a certain degree of the character of the illustrations did become notable in Mughal art.
One reference is to the "DARA SHIKOH ALBUM" which is cited as one of the most important artifacts in the museum library.
Dara Shikoh was Shah Jahan's eldest and favorite son (1615-58) who compiled these floral references.
Included is an illustration (attached) of a prince in Persian costume by the 'mysterious' artist Muhammed Khan noted as possibly from the Deccan and engaged by Dara Shikoh when the Emperors court was in Burhanpur in 1630-32.

The arrangement in the vase appears taken somewhat from an Antwerp publication of c1590 (attached) reflecting this influence.

While these references pertain the art in paintings, they were of course the source for floral images which would occur on the hilts of weapons. In the case of the Mughal interpretation, the mix and match assortment of such floral arrangements were not suitable for such motif, however individual flower images were selected and became studies for decoration.

Again, the focus here is on the Mughal decorative motif may be regarded as prevalent on tulwars as they are of course known mostly in that context, it is more difficult to relegate such motifs to Rajput, Sikh and other situations.

I hope this will offer some insight and ideas toward further research on this topic. Please see the attached link below to the full article I noted by Mr. Losty.

Salaams Jim, I have discovered a remarkable painting in a collection of miniatures put together for the somewhat mystic son Dara Shikoh for his wife but that collection was partly painted over in gold hiding his work / involvement (he was a master of calligraphy) done by members of the Royal Court probably of Aurangazeb who had him executed after he, Dara, had lost a key battle with Aurangazeb... for the throne.

What I find intriguing is that the floral style in these flowers in the largest picture below is exactly the same as those for the work on the Tulvar Hilt floral decoration...

There is always a possible link in the hypothesis of some form of mystical tie up with the concept of decoration in the Tulvar and some hidden secret concerning the sword...it's possible proximity/relationship to the name Tulvar and floral image...Tul means flower as does Pul...Thus Tulvar and Pulouar...After all; Dara Shikoh even tried to consider a joint Hindu Arabic link in the two language forms as well as a host of other mystical cult experiences. Could his incredible collection of art work be related to the designs on Tulvar Hilts? See the floral work below from The "DARA SHIKOH ALBUM"

See https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ry-in-pictures

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Pukka Bundook · 30th October 2016, 04:01 PM

Jens,

Firstly, Thank You for making your catalogue available! I have not yet got my copy.
When you started this thread, I wondered if you meant the flower (phool) or the disc decoration.
Quite a few years ago, I recall our discussions on just this subject, but am afraid I recall it imperfectly now.
I am quite sure however that the gist we agreed upon, was that the flower (on Hindu arms) was not merely decorative, but to attract the attention of a deity for some purpose, Or to symbolise the same.
I know poppies are associated with a certain deity, but do not remember which at present! Poppies are a very common theme in hilt decoration, as are Lotus buds.
For some reason, fishes as decoration appear to be limited to katars, and this may seem odd to others besides myself!
Fishes/Vishnu or one of the associated incarnations of the same deity never (never??) seem to appear on sword hilts.
I will have to do some looking and thinking on this interesting subject Jens. It has been off the back-burner for a Long time!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st October 2016, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Jens,

Firstly, Thank You for making your catalogue available! I have not yet got my copy.
When you started this thread, I wondered if you meant the flower (phool) or the disc decoration.
Quite a few years ago, I recall our discussions on just this subject, but am afraid I recall it imperfectly now.
I am quite sure however that the gist we agreed upon, was that the flower (on Hindu arms) was not merely decorative, but to attract the attention of a deity for some purpose, Or to symbolise the same.
I know poppies are associated with a certain deity, but do not remember which at present! Poppies are a very common theme in hilt decoration, as are Lotus buds.
For some reason, fishes as decoration appear to be limited to katars, and this may seem odd to others besides myself!
Fishes/Vishnu or one of the associated incarnations of the same deity never (never??) seem to appear on sword hilts.
I will have to do some looking and thinking on this interesting subject Jens. It has been off the back-burner for a Long time!

Salaams Pukka Bundook See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ace+collection # 41 where there is a Tulvar sword numbered 1412 in that collection with Fish on the hilt... as below ~

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Pukka Bundook · 1st November 2016, 02:59 AM

Salaams Ibrahiim,

I thought when I wrote 'never' it would bring something to light!
Thank you for the link to that spectacular thread.
The tulwar you show here is very different in decoration to any I have seen before. Very well done and possibly unique. Thank you for this!

Richard.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st November 2016, 05:30 PM

I think we will have to see the 'flower' decorations in two steps.
The Phool is to my oppinion more orientated to a place/clan/sub clan and so on. As it is likely that the different clans, maybe of the same religion would use the same Phool. It can sometimes be a bit difficult to know which clan/sub clan belonged together, as they had differrent names.
The other flower decoration, the one on the hilt, is also somewhat orientated to a place, but far more to a fashion - to when it was made. This leads me to warn you that some of the decorations were made on far older weapons. The old decoration stripped off, and a new decoration started a new era of the weapon.

30th October 2016, 02:16 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ibrahiim, I mean the hilt looking like the attached. Attached Images

30th October 2016, 04:16 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes the decoration of the hilts is interesting, and varies from place to place and from time to time according to fashion. However, what I was thinking of was the flower on top of the disc. Either it is a flower or a sun, or missing all together. I think this is a better pointer than the floral decoration of the hilt. Attached Images

30th October 2016, 03:56 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Some more...The black background from the Caravanna Collection: Quote"17th Century Western India - Gujarat, Mughal period (1526-1858) Steel, gold Height 18 cm Tulwar hilt dated to the 17th century, shaped as a bird dated from the 17th century with a hand guard forming the profile of a swan. The entire surface is covered with floral motifs, engraved and inlayed in gold, in the koftgari technique. Bibl.: Jawaant, 2005, p. 83; Nath Pant, 1978, vol. 3, est. CXX." Unquote. I note that the swan neck finial of the knuckleguard is almost exactly that of the Afghanistan swan neck... Attached Images

30th October 2016, 05:18 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Sorry Richard, I overlooked you mail at first. Having the head filled with flowers - the right side with roses, and the left side with tulips - I am sure Ariel will understand my stress:-). You you are right, we did discuss the flowers on top of the disc, but although I find this very interesting, and research should be done, someone else must do it, as I have only one head and two hands, and I have started to research some katar types, which I have wanted to research for a long time. The research is slow, as not much is found about them, and the informations to have, seems to differe quite a bit of for how long time this katar group was used. I hope you will like the catalogue when you get it:-) - all the best to you all. Jens

30th October 2016, 04:01 PM	#9
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jens, Firstly, Thank You for making your catalogue available! I have not yet got my copy. When you started this thread, I wondered if you meant the flower (phool) or the disc decoration. Quite a few years ago, I recall our discussions on just this subject, but am afraid I recall it imperfectly now. I am quite sure however that the gist we agreed upon, was that the flower (on Hindu arms) was not merely decorative, but to attract the attention of a deity for some purpose, Or to symbolise the same. I know poppies are associated with a certain deity, but do not remember which at present! Poppies are a very common theme in hilt decoration, as are Lotus buds. For some reason, fishes as decoration appear to be limited to katars, and this may seem odd to others besides myself! Fishes/Vishnu or one of the associated incarnations of the same deity never (never??) seem to appear on sword hilts. I will have to do some looking and thinking on this interesting subject Jens. It has been off the back-burner for a Long time!

1st November 2016, 02:59 AM	#11
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Salaams Ibrahiim, I thought when I wrote 'never' it would bring something to light! Thank you for the link to that spectacular thread. The tulwar you show here is very different in decoration to any I have seen before. Very well done and possibly unique. Thank you for this! Richard.

1st November 2016, 05:30 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I think we will have to see the 'flower' decorations in two steps. The Phool is to my oppinion more orientated to a place/clan/sub clan and so on. As it is likely that the different clans, maybe of the same religion would use the same Phool. It can sometimes be a bit difficult to know which clan/sub clan belonged together, as they had differrent names. The other flower decoration, the one on the hilt, is also somewhat orientated to a place, but far more to a fashion - to when it was made. This leads me to warn you that some of the decorations were made on far older weapons. The old decoration stripped off, and a new decoration started a new era of the weapon.