The flowers on the tulwar hilts

ariel · 30th October 2016, 12:06 PM

After almost 40 years of marriage, my wife finally summarized two of my hopeless basic flaws:
1. Even though I am not color blind, I am "color deaf".
2. For me, any flowering thingie with thorns is a rose, and without them, - a tulip.

The former is an insurmountable obstacle for choosing an appropriate tie for a shirt. The latter disqualifies me from deciphering decorative floral motives on anything, including Oriental weapons.

When the two are combined ( such as bringing her flowers) the result is usually catastrophic.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th October 2016, 01:45 PM

Ibrahiim,

The drawings/hilts you are showing are very interesting.
The dravings were often used by goldsmiths to show to customers, so they could choose a decoration for their hilt.
Illustration no 7, have a look at the middle hilt and compare it to the one I show in the catalogue pp. 303-306. These two hilts must have been made at the same workshop. Ibrahiim do you have a better picture of this hilt?
Jens

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th October 2016, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahiim,

The drawings/hilts you are showing are very interesting.
The dravings were often used by goldsmiths to show to customers, so they could choose a decoration for their hilt.
Illustration no 7, have a look at the middle hilt and compare it to the one I show in the catalogue pp. 303-306. These two hilts must have been made at the same workshop. Ibrahiim do you have a better picture of this hilt?
Jens

I dont have your catalogue reference so I dont know... I take it you mean the #4 sketch?... I am in the UK in a few days and will try to get your catalogue. ...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th October 2016, 02:16 PM

Ibrahiim,
I mean the hilt looking like the attached.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th October 2016, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahiim,
I mean the hilt looking like the attached.

Salaams, It is amazing that I have posted one so like yours except mine has a Knuckleguard... I will search to see if there is a better picture meanwhile a few more ...This Tegha has a Tulvar hilt and interesting floral decor whilst on a black background; a Tulvar hilt covered in Script except for a single small flower between the Guard.

The name Tul(var) means flower...and the Afghanistan version is Pul(ouar) . Does this refer to the abundance of floral decoration or give rise to it? On the other hand may the design of the flower shaped pommel have any relation to the hilt/sword name?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th October 2016, 03:56 PM

Some more...The black background from the Caravanna Collection:

Quote"17th Century

Western India - Gujarat, Mughal period (1526-1858)

Steel, gold

Height 18 cm

Tulwar hilt dated to the 17th century, shaped as a bird dated from the 17th century with a hand guard forming the profile of a swan. The entire surface is covered with floral motifs, engraved and inlayed in gold, in the koftgari technique.

Bibl.: Jawaant, 2005, p. 83; Nath Pant, 1978, vol. 3, est. CXX." Unquote.

I note that the swan neck finial of the knuckleguard is almost exactly that of the Afghanistan swan neck...

Jens Nordlunde · 30th October 2016, 04:16 PM

Yes the decoration of the hilts is interesting, and varies from place to place and from time to time according to fashion.
However, what I was thinking of was the flower on top of the disc. Either it is a flower or a sun, or missing all together. I think this is a better pointer than the floral decoration of the hilt.

Pukka Bundook · 30th October 2016, 04:01 PM

Jens,

Firstly, Thank You for making your catalogue available! I have not yet got my copy.
When you started this thread, I wondered if you meant the flower (phool) or the disc decoration.
Quite a few years ago, I recall our discussions on just this subject, but am afraid I recall it imperfectly now.
I am quite sure however that the gist we agreed upon, was that the flower (on Hindu arms) was not merely decorative, but to attract the attention of a deity for some purpose, Or to symbolise the same.
I know poppies are associated with a certain deity, but do not remember which at present! Poppies are a very common theme in hilt decoration, as are Lotus buds.
For some reason, fishes as decoration appear to be limited to katars, and this may seem odd to others besides myself!
Fishes/Vishnu or one of the associated incarnations of the same deity never (never??) seem to appear on sword hilts.
I will have to do some looking and thinking on this interesting subject Jens. It has been off the back-burner for a Long time!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st October 2016, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Jens,

Firstly, Thank You for making your catalogue available! I have not yet got my copy.
When you started this thread, I wondered if you meant the flower (phool) or the disc decoration.
Quite a few years ago, I recall our discussions on just this subject, but am afraid I recall it imperfectly now.
I am quite sure however that the gist we agreed upon, was that the flower (on Hindu arms) was not merely decorative, but to attract the attention of a deity for some purpose, Or to symbolise the same.
I know poppies are associated with a certain deity, but do not remember which at present! Poppies are a very common theme in hilt decoration, as are Lotus buds.
For some reason, fishes as decoration appear to be limited to katars, and this may seem odd to others besides myself!
Fishes/Vishnu or one of the associated incarnations of the same deity never (never??) seem to appear on sword hilts.
I will have to do some looking and thinking on this interesting subject Jens. It has been off the back-burner for a Long time!

Salaams Pukka Bundook See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ace+collection # 41 where there is a Tulvar sword numbered 1412 in that collection with Fish on the hilt... as below ~

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

30th October 2016, 03:56 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Some more...The black background from the Caravanna Collection: Quote"17th Century Western India - Gujarat, Mughal period (1526-1858) Steel, gold Height 18 cm Tulwar hilt dated to the 17th century, shaped as a bird dated from the 17th century with a hand guard forming the profile of a swan. The entire surface is covered with floral motifs, engraved and inlayed in gold, in the koftgari technique. Bibl.: Jawaant, 2005, p. 83; Nath Pant, 1978, vol. 3, est. CXX." Unquote. I note that the swan neck finial of the knuckleguard is almost exactly that of the Afghanistan swan neck... Attached Images

30th October 2016, 04:16 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes the decoration of the hilts is interesting, and varies from place to place and from time to time according to fashion. However, what I was thinking of was the flower on top of the disc. Either it is a flower or a sun, or missing all together. I think this is a better pointer than the floral decoration of the hilt. Attached Images

30th October 2016, 12:06 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	After almost 40 years of marriage, my wife finally summarized two of my hopeless basic flaws: 1. Even though I am not color blind, I am "color deaf". 2. For me, any flowering thingie with thorns is a rose, and without them, - a tulip. The former is an insurmountable obstacle for choosing an appropriate tie for a shirt. The latter disqualifies me from deciphering decorative floral motives on anything, including Oriental weapons. When the two are combined ( such as bringing her flowers) the result is usually catastrophic.

30th October 2016, 01:45 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ibrahiim, The drawings/hilts you are showing are very interesting. The dravings were often used by goldsmiths to show to customers, so they could choose a decoration for their hilt. Illustration no 7, have a look at the middle hilt and compare it to the one I show in the catalogue pp. 303-306. These two hilts must have been made at the same workshop. Ibrahiim do you have a better picture of this hilt? Jens

30th October 2016, 02:16 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ibrahiim, I mean the hilt looking like the attached. Attached Images

30th October 2016, 04:01 PM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jens, Firstly, Thank You for making your catalogue available! I have not yet got my copy. When you started this thread, I wondered if you meant the flower (phool) or the disc decoration. Quite a few years ago, I recall our discussions on just this subject, but am afraid I recall it imperfectly now. I am quite sure however that the gist we agreed upon, was that the flower (on Hindu arms) was not merely decorative, but to attract the attention of a deity for some purpose, Or to symbolise the same. I know poppies are associated with a certain deity, but do not remember which at present! Poppies are a very common theme in hilt decoration, as are Lotus buds. For some reason, fishes as decoration appear to be limited to katars, and this may seem odd to others besides myself! Fishes/Vishnu or one of the associated incarnations of the same deity never (never??) seem to appear on sword hilts. I will have to do some looking and thinking on this interesting subject Jens. It has been off the back-burner for a Long time!