Indian pseudoshashka

[Jim McDougall]

Well noted Ariel, and it seems pretty clear that swords of this type certainly date much farther back than these geopolitical events of the 20th century.
We have been discussing the weapons of Central Asia for so many years now, and your knowledge on these and the history of these regions has been quite nearly legion here, so your input is extremely important.

I think however, that the inclusion of numbers of weapons types and from various contexts with similar key features is helpful in investigating the many possibilities which present themselves in these conundrums. The examples Ibrahiim has been presenting give us good perspective as we consider many potential scenarios.
Not all discovery in such matters is entirely empirical, as was well expressed by Dr. Albert Szent-Gyorgyi;
" ...discovery is seeing what everybody else has seen,
and thinking what nobody else has thought".

I know that many times over the years, I have been taken to task for many of my ideas and theories in similar queries in discussions, often seen as fanciful or 'fantasy'. However I believe in testing every possibility regardless, and have always welcomed supported rebuttal which would remove them as required from material compiled toward effective resolution in these queries.

Indeed, some of our 'mysteries' here have been solved in a few days, many took years, and you and I have been here through most all of them! I often marvel at how much has been accomplished here in learning on these arms, and it is exciting to keep going.

We indeed will conquer this one as well.
On another note, on the Baluch/Sindh sabres.....which were these ?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In considering the Zoomorphic Elephant head and trunk forming the knuckleguard and how it is joined to the hilt ...I propose that the sword may be linked to those directly involved in the war elephant role... The sword is lightweight but effective perhaps as a secondary weapon thus it may be an Archers sword... or that of a pike-man seen on the elephants back... An Elephant Crew members sword !

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well noted Ariel, and it seems pretty clear that swords of this type certainly date much farther back than these geopolitical events of the 20th century.
We have been discussing the weapons of Central Asia for so many years now, and your knowledge on these and the history of these regions has been quite nearly legion here, so your input is extremely important.

I think however, that the inclusion of numbers of weapons types and from various contexts with similar key features is helpful in investigating the many possibilities which present themselves in these conundrums. The examples Ibrahiim has been presenting give us good perspective as we consider many potential scenarios.
Not all discovery in such matters is entirely empirical, as was well expressed by Dr. Albert Szent-Gyorgyi;
" ...discovery is seeing what everybody else has seen,
and thinking what nobody else has thought".

I know that many times over the years, I have been taken to task for many of my ideas and theories in similar queries in discussions, often seen as fanciful or 'fantasy'. However I believe in testing every possibility regardless, and have always welcomed supported rebuttal which would remove them as required from material compiled toward effective resolution in these queries.

Indeed, some of our 'mysteries' here have been solved in a few days, many took years, and you and I have been here through most all of them! I often marvel at how much has been accomplished here in learning on these arms, and it is exciting to keep going.

We indeed will conquer this one as well.
On another note, on the Baluch/Sindh sabres.....which were these ?

Hello Jim, Sindh Hyderabad ... I was just looking for the same detail ....Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21555

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Ibrahiim for that link! Now I recall these interesting sabres which were in my view after rereading the posts and evidence, clearly from the Baluch-Sind regions and probably Hyderabad. It has always been confusing that there is a Hyderabad in these northern (now Pakistan) regions.....as well as the notable part of the Deccan further south.
Many references denote 'Hyderabad' without specifying which is meant.

For me a most telling feature in these Baluch-Sind sabres is the ring or loop in the pommel. As noted in the discussion, these are as far as known, not an affectation on Arab swords. Interesting comparison was pointing out the groups of rings present on Omani khanjhar scabbards,

Returning to the original topic, again it is most interesting to see the wider spectrum of these type sabres, which seem to have been prevalent quite extensively in the south, that is Deccan. However, there appear to be some compelling similarities in hilts further south, which have features, , many zoomorphic, even as far as those featured on the familiar kastane.

Zoomorphics in ethnographic weapons are of course often highly stylized, and debate on what particular creature is represented are often the case with western perceptions.

Regarding the elephant as such a feature intended in these hilts is as far as I can imagine, not likely. Primarily the elephant is represented zoomorphically only in the regions of Gujerat and Bhuj in notable degree. I believe that representation had to do more with regal or dynastic leitmotif with the elephant in rather exalted standing.
Zoomorphic features were not intended as insignia denoting weapons to certain groups of military or other functions in any notable instance I am aware of.
While the 'gooseneck' feature did represent the swan in cases where the head was represented fully, and the serpentine Makara or dragon head as well.....the elephant trunk I don't believe was a part of such motif.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Ibrahiim for that link! Now I recall these interesting sabres which were in my view after rereading the posts and evidence, clearly from the Baluch-Sind regions and probably Hyderabad. It has always been confusing that there is a Hyderabad in these northern (now Pakistan) regions.....as well as the notable part of the Deccan further south.
Many references denote 'Hyderabad' without specifying which is meant.

For me a most telling feature in these Baluch-Sind sabres is the ring or loop in the pommel. As noted in the discussion, these are as far as known, not an affectation on Arab swords. Interesting comparison was pointing out the groups of rings present on Omani khanjhar scabbards,

Returning to the original topic, again it is most interesting to see the wider spectrum of these type sabres, which seem to have been prevalent quite extensively in the south, that is Deccan. However, there appear to be some compelling similarities in hilts further south, which have features, , many zoomorphic, even as far as those featured on the familiar kastane.

Zoomorphics in ethnographic weapons are of course often highly stylized, and debate on what particular creature is represented are often the case with western perceptions.

Regarding the elephant as such a feature intended in these hilts is as far as I can imagine, not likely. Primarily the elephant is represented zoomorphically only in the regions of Gujerat and Bhuj in notable degree. I believe that representation had to do more with regal or dynastic leitmotif with the elephant in rather exalted standing.
Zoomorphic features were not intended as insignia denoting weapons to certain groups of military or other functions in any notable instance I am aware of.
While the 'gooseneck' feature did represent the swan in cases where the head was represented fully, and the serpentine Makara or dragon head as well.....the elephant trunk I don't believe was a part of such motif.

Hello Jim, The ring in the Sinde Hilt is interesting although nothing to do with the Omani Khanjar rings which are double the size and involved in the way the Omani Khanjar is constructed. The clue to what these terminal rings on the Sinde swords is for is at #18, second picture, of the Sinde sword thread where it can be seen that it is for a wrist strap.

What is also interesting, however, is the wire wrap which terminates in a special knot...Perhaps "The Omani Knot"... present in all Omani Shamshiir including the presentation sword to Stanley by Sultan Bargash and covered at Omani Shamshiir on Forum...of the same style of silver wire used on Omani Khanjars.

I looked at the knuckle guard and perceived the elephant trunk as clearly visible emanating from a raised shoulder geometry like an arch, I thought was an elephantine head... most noticeable in the Bling birdhead example though present in others to lesser degree... Pushing the envelope I point to the Kastane as illustrative of mixed Zoomorphic form often showing elephants partial trunk folded back over the head in short form and illustrating the multiple animalistic form of the hilt; part land and part sea creature with a peacocks tail and feet of a pig, head of a sea Makara / elephant, body and occasionally head of a crocodile and several other ancient creatures.

Either way and ignoring my brilliant idea for the Elephant crew sword I see similar form...the appearance of the knuckleguard shaped like an elephants trunk as emanating from some sort of creatures mouth...possibly a variant of the Yali concept... and ending as a bud design...

In respect of the links between Deccan, Afghanistan and Central Asia; Clear involvement was direct between the Deccan and Central Asia as well as between the Deccan and Afghan regions..though my 1920 involvement between the last ruler of Bukhara and his exile to Afghanistan should not be taken out of context...as the whole melting pot including Turkomen, Tajic and Hazzara (the 1,000 men left behind in Afghanistan by Ghengis Khan) illustrates. Bukhara at the centre of Central Asia and the ancient city of Kabul in Afghanistan were of course also astride one of the greatest trade routes in history; The Silk Road. Thus, they were all trading with each other and/or politically entangled for several centuries.

[Tatyana Dianova]

One more of the type, sold recently in the UK. The auction description:
"Unusual Indian Sword, 17th Century, fitted with a European rapier type double edge blade flared towards the hilt, iron flange and tang, two-piece ivory grips with pointed pommel. Blade 33"

[Jim McDougall]

Extremely unusual to see this type hilt, faceted bolster in Central Asian/ Khyber/Afghan style with a European rapier blade. By the photos it would seem of course a far more modern fabrication than 17th c., though the blade likely is that.
It seems hilts of this style, even with the anomalous 'tunkou' feature, occur in Southern India in Karnataka and even as far as Tanjore according to what has been shared earlier in this discussion

It does seem that with the volume of European blades arriving with Mahratta traders in these 17th c and earlier times, there were quite a few rapier blades, and many of these were mounted in khanda and patas as well as in cut down use in other weapons.

As far as I have known, there has never been any particular favor toward the narrow rapier blades in the northern, Central Asian regions, so this may be a traditional anomaly in the south.

[Tatyana Dianova]

I agree with Jim that the whole type have most probably a South Indian origin.
Of course, one cannot tell when the "rapier" sword was mounted, but it isn't a modern combination either, judging by the wear and the overall codition.

[kai]

Hello Jim,

OTOH, this apparently well-aged hilt seems to be of genuine northern (rather than southern) Indian form including the minute notch at the underside of the gripping area. Thus, I'd be inclined to believe that this piece originates from the Mughal sphere of influence.

Not my area of expertise though, just my 2 rupees...

Regards,
Kai