Very interesting find! Roman lead sling 'bullets'

Henk · 12th October 2016, 02:04 PM

I do remember the explanation of a historian of using lead bullets in stead of stone by the Romans. The impact of a lead bullet was proven to be a heavier injury also by the fact that lead was toxic.

Kmaddock · 12th October 2016, 09:15 PM

Being a more dense material it would definitely be a better projectile
However,
I do not think the toxicity of lead was any way relevant to it being a projectile material.

The Romans used lead acetate as a sweetener for their wine and lead containers for their drinks, this would imply they had no knowledge of the lead toxicity

Regards

Ken

kronckew · 13th October 2016, 07:51 AM

...and they used lead water pipes, some suspect the effects of lead poisoning is a contributing reason for the decline and 'fall' of the western empire.

many slingers cast their own shot from lead in holes poked in a convenient clay surface in holes poked in it with their thumbs, cast shot even can show the thumbnails. (as below)

slingers could (and can) propel lead shot at speeds that provided penetrative bone destroying wounds more like modern-ish musketry, not like someone throwing stones that bounce off. the toxicity is not a factor, compared to the sheer physical damage. lead bullets are still often left alone and not removed if not near vital structures as they get encysted - walled off - by the body so lead absorption is minimal. acidic beverages in chalices however produce nice easily absorbed lead salts and may be why some emperors were a bit mad.

like the atlatl, slings can still provide lethality, and they are cheap and easy to make. just because it's ancient tech doesn't mean it's not effective within it's range.

heck, col. churchill* even used his longbow with noted effect in ww2, and special forces still have crossbows available for special purposes.

*- mad jack churchill even went ashore from his landing craft, claymore in hand, followed by a piper, he captured a german unit with just his sword, one at a time.

Pukka Bundook · 13th October 2016, 02:55 PM

Kronckew,
Is that a sling missile? .....never seen the likes of that before.

They Still use lead water pipes as well, Europe and even in Canada.
Might explain a lot!

Battara · 13th October 2016, 03:06 PM

Reminds me of the old lead bullets once used a century ago.............

kronckew · 13th October 2016, 03:11 PM

yes, thumbshot. the acorn and double ogival shapes were the most common tho. found the original ref for the picture, see attached. smaller drilled shot whistled when throw, were almost impossible to see coming and were used to terrorise the enemy. they could be thrown like grapeshot, 3 or 4 at a time.

i always wondered why canucks were 'special'.

found another ref that indicated tests with lead shot revealed they could be thrown 300-400 metres and had the kinetic energy of a .44 magnum. roman surgeons even had special instruments for removing lead shot from victims.

the greeks were fond of casting litle messages on their shot, similar to those we chalked onto bombs for delivery to our opponents

'catch this' and 'this is for dessert'. 'fly accurately', and even 'Attack Octavian's a****hole'. presumeably by a marcus antonius supporter. (MA lost tho)

M ELEY · 14th October 2016, 10:46 AM

Love that thumbshot! It makes sense if the mold used to make the lead shot was using the so called lost wax casting. What easier way to make a wax mold for the later lead projectile than to stick one's thumb in the wax!

The article I attached that started the thread shows a rounder shot. I'm assuming this was lead poured into water? I remember an old thread where we talked about 'shot towers' that poured lead from its spire down into a vat of water, the natural shape of the falling metallic liquid being round shot.

Andreas · 14th October 2016, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

The article I attached that started the thread shows a rounder shot. I'm assuming this was lead poured into water? I remember an old thread where we talked about 'shot towers' that poured lead from its spire down into a vat of water, the natural shape of the falling metallic liquid being round shot.

They were cast in two-part moulds. The pics below show two Ancient Greek ones, one with an intaglio maker's mark (TIMON,).

13th October 2016, 07:51 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	...and they used lead water pipes, some suspect the effects of lead poisoning is a contributing reason for the decline and 'fall' of the western empire. many slingers cast their own shot from lead in holes poked in a convenient clay surface in holes poked in it with their thumbs, cast shot even can show the thumbnails. (as below) slingers could (and can) propel lead shot at speeds that provided penetrative bone destroying wounds more like modern-ish musketry, not like someone throwing stones that bounce off. the toxicity is not a factor, compared to the sheer physical damage. lead bullets are still often left alone and not removed if not near vital structures as they get encysted - walled off - by the body so lead absorption is minimal. acidic beverages in chalices however produce nice easily absorbed lead salts and may be why some emperors were a bit mad. like the atlatl, slings can still provide lethality, and they are cheap and easy to make. just because it's ancient tech doesn't mean it's not effective within it's range. heck, col. churchill* even used his longbow with noted effect in ww2, and special forces still have crossbows available for special purposes. - mad jack churchill even went ashore from his landing craft, claymore in hand, followed by a piper, he captured a german unit with just his sword, one at a time. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 13th October 2016 at 08:23 AM.*

13th October 2016, 03:11 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	yes, thumbshot. the acorn and double ogival shapes were the most common tho. found the original ref for the picture, see attached. smaller drilled shot whistled when throw, were almost impossible to see coming and were used to terrorise the enemy. they could be thrown like grapeshot, 3 or 4 at a time. i always wondered why canucks were 'special'. found another ref that indicated tests with lead shot revealed they could be thrown 300-400 metres and had the kinetic energy of a .44 magnum. roman surgeons even had special instruments for removing lead shot from victims. the greeks were fond of casting litle messages on their shot, similar to those we chalked onto bombs for delivery to our opponents 'catch this' and 'this is for dessert'. 'fly accurately', and even 'Attack Octavian's a***hole'. presumeably by a marcus antonius supporter. (MA lost tho) Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 13th October 2016 at 03:44 PM.*

12th October 2016, 02:04 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I do remember the explanation of a historian of using lead bullets in stead of stone by the Romans. The impact of a lead bullet was proven to be a heavier injury also by the fact that lead was toxic.

12th October 2016, 09:15 PM	#2
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Being a more dense material it would definitely be a better projectile However, I do not think the toxicity of lead was any way relevant to it being a projectile material. The Romans used lead acetate as a sweetener for their wine and lead containers for their drinks, this would imply they had no knowledge of the lead toxicity Regards Ken

13th October 2016, 02:55 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Kronckew, Is that a sling missile? .....never seen the likes of that before. They Still use lead water pipes as well, Europe and even in Canada. Might explain a lot!

13th October 2016, 03:06 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	Reminds me of the old lead bullets once used a century ago.............

14th October 2016, 10:46 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Love that thumbshot! It makes sense if the mold used to make the lead shot was using the so called lost wax casting. What easier way to make a wax mold for the later lead projectile than to stick one's thumb in the wax! The article I attached that started the thread shows a rounder shot. I'm assuming this was lead poured into water? I remember an old thread where we talked about 'shot towers' that poured lead from its spire down into a vat of water, the natural shape of the falling metallic liquid being round shot.