Yataghan or Flyssa?

Oliver Pinchot · 28th September 2016, 01:32 AM

To clarify:
The flyssa is particular to certain Algerian Berber groups; it is a local adaptation of the Ottoman yataghan. Yataghans which are much more closely recognizable as Ottoman in style (although with distinct characteristics) were used at urban centers such as Algiers and Tunis, where Ottoman influence dates from the early 16th century.

While all manner of weapons which can at least be loosely termed "Ottoman" were used throughout Greece, the yataghan was particularly well suited to the kind of fighting done there, i.e. guerillas operating on foot in difficult terrain. There is one distinctively Greek form of yataghan blade which is virtually straight, with a distinctive upturned tip; it is often hollowground and/or fullered. The form survives on the Cretan dagger. Mounts range from very simple to remarkably elaborate.

ariel · 28th September 2016, 04:36 AM

Nimcha may be translated most accurately as "half" or "little half" , kind of Enlglish " shorty".
Per H.W. Bellew's "The races of Afghanistan" people of mixed ethnic origin or newly-converted Muslims whose adherence to Islam is still doubtful are referred as "nimchas".

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th September 2016, 10:56 AM

Great thread all...I have learned more about this style of weapon in one page of discussion than any number of books could have provided ( books on specialised subjects of weapons arent very available in this part of the world)... Library is the winner and great input from all is thus rewarded... ...Interesting note from Ariel on Nimcha .. There was a specific tribe of Baluchi called Nimcha. It gets little recognition and may not be related to the Nimcha Sword. Further we have a great note from Ariel on this word Nimcha that I already have a section relating to it on another thread...In fact, I have taken the liberty of cross referencing this additional information and I hope that is OK...see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=2&pp=30 It could be that the word Nimcha is related to a conception that the wielders of this sword were half or newly converted to Islam and since they were potentially recruited for mercenary work on the Zanj... by the Omani Sultans that the word was borrowed to name the sword.. The Nimcha.

ariel · 28th September 2016, 12:50 PM

As per Elgood, Nim means half, and - cha is just a diminutive suffix.
Thus, anything "half-size" or of mixed origin may conceivably be dubbed nimcha, be it a short boarding sword, waistcoat, or a man of only partially" good blood". No need to postulate transference of ethnicity onto a style of the weapon or vice versa.

But a half-wit is a complete idiot, half full is in fact half empty and half-cooked chicken is just raw and likely loaded with E. Coli:-))

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th September 2016, 01:24 PM

I would rather know myself where this word came from since it appears on the so called Nimcha of two entirely separate regions.. How did the term pass from one region to another ostensibly from a Persian/Baluchi word up the Mediterranean then down the red sea or vica-versa...? And in discovering that will it throw light on the origin and transfer of species?... Otherwise will we not have gone off half-cock about this weapon?

ariel · 29th September 2016, 05:30 AM

Ibrahiim is asking an interesting question. Indeed, neither the Mediterranean version, nor its Omani twin can be legitimately called " half sword", "little swords" or anything like that: they are full size sabers. And to the best of my knowledge both of them are locally called just Saif.

However, in both localities there existed short boarding weapons that could have legitimately been defined as such. Could it be that the Europeans mistakenly used the specific word Nimcha as a name for the vague and general "Saif" ?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th September 2016, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Ibrahiim is asking an interesting question. Indeed, neither the Mediterranean version, nor its Omani twin can be legitimately called " half sword", "little swords" or anything like that: they are full size sabers. And to the best of my knowledge both of them are locally called just Saif.

However, in both localities there existed short boarding weapons that could have legitimately been defined as such. Could it be that the Europeans mistakenly used the specific word Nimcha as a name for the vague and general "Saif" ?

Salaams Ariel... You are correct in several of your pointers to the peculiar name Nimcha apparently applied to the sword of Morocco and its sister from Zanzibar. The name used by locals in both regions is Sayf/Saif/Seyf. There are many questions or possibilities as to how the term Nimcha entered the equation not least that an enterprising sword collector "expert" gave the name and it stuck! because it "looked" the same.
Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=2&pp=30 where it can be seen that apart from a similar hand grip the entire sword arrangement in both cases is chalk and cheese!
Regarding the Name Nimcha it is worth listing the possible reasons all of which hold water...for the Name; Nimcha;

1. Nim means half in Persian and Baluch. The conotation attached to the sword could mean half sword as applied also to half convert...meaning those half converts to Islam working amongst the Baluch on the Zanj in other words "the sword of the half converts".

2. The word Nimcha may mean blink of an eye to Moroccan people. ( This may be regional/ colloquial since they say blink of your eye in Morocco like this ghamad ainak. ) See note * below.

3a. We know that military dress in the sub continent remained almost ancient until recently thus tie ups between apparel and weapons is common(and must be of antiquity) as per Oliver Pinchots revelation about Salawar and the pantaloon style of dress known in those regions and the dagger/sword. The sword being also wide at the throat and narrow at the tip...like the pants!

3b. In this case in referring to Nimcha, it is the waistcoat of Persian, Baluch and central Asian form for men... Uzbekistan has the word Nimcha meaning waistcoat...Half Jacket. The waistcoat worn by Baluchi Mercenaries may be a reference to those worn on the Zanj ~ Mercenaries of the Omani Sultans of Saaid bin Sultan before and after his death in 1856. In this case Nimcha being the sword worn by the Half Jackets...Nimcha.

4. The great explorers technically at least, may have transmitted the word from Zanzibar/Zanj to Central Africa since they accompanied Tipu Tib the great slave captain and explorers Burton and Speke thus linking into trans Saharan trade routes (Ivory/ Slaves/ Rhino) was likely.

5. Last but not least the whats in a word phenomemna is entirely plausible though I admire the potential in the clothing link after all; naming parts or weapons after clothes also occurred with the hilt of the great Moroccan dagger One of the Khoumiya which took its name from A French Policemans Hat!! and there are many more.

*Note the arabic verb for blink is Ghamz غمز

28th September 2016, 10:56 AM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Great thread all...I have learned more about this style of weapon in one page of discussion than any number of books could have provided ( books on specialised subjects of weapons arent very available in this part of the world)... Library is the winner and great input from all is thus rewarded... ...Interesting note from Ariel on Nimcha .. There was a specific tribe of Baluchi called Nimcha. It gets little recognition and may not be related to the Nimcha Sword. Further we have a great note from Ariel on this word Nimcha that I already have a section relating to it on another thread...In fact, I have taken the liberty of cross referencing this additional information and I hope that is OK...see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=2&pp=30 It could be that the word Nimcha is related to a conception that the wielders of this sword were half or newly converted to Islam and since they were potentially recruited for mercenary work on the Zanj... by the Omani Sultans that the word was borrowed to name the sword.. The Nimcha. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 28th September 2016 at 11:33 AM.

28th September 2016, 01:24 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Giving the word Nimcha a full and fair airing. I would rather know myself where this word came from since it appears on the so called Nimcha of two entirely separate regions.. How did the term pass from one region to another ostensibly from a Persian/Baluchi word up the Mediterranean then down the red sea or vica-versa...? And in discovering that will it throw light on the origin and transfer of species?... Otherwise will we not have gone off half-cock about this weapon?

28th September 2016, 01:32 AM	#1
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 462	To clarify: The flyssa is particular to certain Algerian Berber groups; it is a local adaptation of the Ottoman yataghan. Yataghans which are much more closely recognizable as Ottoman in style (although with distinct characteristics) were used at urban centers such as Algiers and Tunis, where Ottoman influence dates from the early 16th century. While all manner of weapons which can at least be loosely termed "Ottoman" were used throughout Greece, the yataghan was particularly well suited to the kind of fighting done there, i.e. guerillas operating on foot in difficult terrain. There is one distinctively Greek form of yataghan blade which is virtually straight, with a distinctive upturned tip; it is often hollowground and/or fullered. The form survives on the Cretan dagger. Mounts range from very simple to remarkably elaborate.

28th September 2016, 04:36 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Nimcha may be translated most accurately as "half" or "little half" , kind of Enlglish " shorty". Per H.W. Bellew's "The races of Afghanistan" people of mixed ethnic origin or newly-converted Muslims whose adherence to Islam is still doubtful are referred as "nimchas".

28th September 2016, 12:50 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As per Elgood, Nim means half, and - cha is just a diminutive suffix. Thus, anything "half-size" or of mixed origin may conceivably be dubbed nimcha, be it a short boarding sword, waistcoat, or a man of only partially" good blood". No need to postulate transference of ethnicity onto a style of the weapon or vice versa. But a half-wit is a complete idiot, half full is in fact half empty and half-cooked chicken is just raw and likely loaded with E. Coli:-))

29th September 2016, 05:30 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ibrahiim is asking an interesting question. Indeed, neither the Mediterranean version, nor its Omani twin can be legitimately called " half sword", "little swords" or anything like that: they are full size sabers. And to the best of my knowledge both of them are locally called just Saif. However, in both localities there existed short boarding weapons that could have legitimately been defined as such. Could it be that the Europeans mistakenly used the specific word Nimcha as a name for the vague and general "Saif" ?