Yataghan or Flyssa?

Oliver Pinchot · 27th September 2016, 05:20 AM

The term "Salawar" (also rendered salwar and shalvar,) was applied to these weapons because of its similarity to a type of breeches common in N. India, which are quite broad at the waist and taper continuously to the ankle. The analogy with the form of the blade is obvious.

"Khyber knife" was coined by the British, for the first place they encountered Afghans armed with it.

"Karakulak" refers specifically to a short, heavy utility knife of yataghan form carried primarily by stock breeders in Anatolia. Karakulak means "black ear," as the grips were virtually always carved of dark horn.

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2016, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

The term "Salawar" (also rendered salwar and shalvar,) was applied to these weapons because of its similarity to a type of breeches common in N. India, which are quite broad at the waist and taper continuously to the ankle. The analogy with the form of the blade is obvious.

"Khyber knife" was coined by the British, for the first place they encountered Afghans armed with it.

"Karakulak" refers specifically to a short, heavy utility knife of yataghan form carried primarily by stock breeders in Anatolia. Karakulak means "black ear," as the grips were virtually always carved of dark horn.

This is outstanding information!!!
Perfect insight into the linguistic origins of some of these terms which became colloquialisms for certain weapons, first locally then expanding into broader use as 'collectors terms'.
It is most interesting that the use of 'silawar' (sic) has clearly been aligned comparatively with an item of clothing, which has been suggested in another case for the term 'nimcha' which may have its origin in Baluch colloquial language. Apparantly similar alignment for 'short' may have referred to the short waist jackets worn by Baluch men, as has been suggested by Ibrahim in the discussions on these swords now running.

Though some may regard these interesting details as trivialities, they add often profound dimension in following the diffusion and development of weapon forms and the cultures that used them.

Oliver Pinchot · 28th September 2016, 01:32 AM

To clarify:
The flyssa is particular to certain Algerian Berber groups; it is a local adaptation of the Ottoman yataghan. Yataghans which are much more closely recognizable as Ottoman in style (although with distinct characteristics) were used at urban centers such as Algiers and Tunis, where Ottoman influence dates from the early 16th century.

While all manner of weapons which can at least be loosely termed "Ottoman" were used throughout Greece, the yataghan was particularly well suited to the kind of fighting done there, i.e. guerillas operating on foot in difficult terrain. There is one distinctively Greek form of yataghan blade which is virtually straight, with a distinctive upturned tip; it is often hollowground and/or fullered. The form survives on the Cretan dagger. Mounts range from very simple to remarkably elaborate.

ariel · 28th September 2016, 04:36 AM

Nimcha may be translated most accurately as "half" or "little half" , kind of Enlglish " shorty".
Per H.W. Bellew's "The races of Afghanistan" people of mixed ethnic origin or newly-converted Muslims whose adherence to Islam is still doubtful are referred as "nimchas".

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th September 2016, 10:56 AM

Great thread all...I have learned more about this style of weapon in one page of discussion than any number of books could have provided ( books on specialised subjects of weapons arent very available in this part of the world)... Library is the winner and great input from all is thus rewarded... ...Interesting note from Ariel on Nimcha .. There was a specific tribe of Baluchi called Nimcha. It gets little recognition and may not be related to the Nimcha Sword. Further we have a great note from Ariel on this word Nimcha that I already have a section relating to it on another thread...In fact, I have taken the liberty of cross referencing this additional information and I hope that is OK...see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=2&pp=30 It could be that the word Nimcha is related to a conception that the wielders of this sword were half or newly converted to Islam and since they were potentially recruited for mercenary work on the Zanj... by the Omani Sultans that the word was borrowed to name the sword.. The Nimcha.

ariel · 28th September 2016, 12:50 PM

As per Elgood, Nim means half, and - cha is just a diminutive suffix.
Thus, anything "half-size" or of mixed origin may conceivably be dubbed nimcha, be it a short boarding sword, waistcoat, or a man of only partially" good blood". No need to postulate transference of ethnicity onto a style of the weapon or vice versa.

But a half-wit is a complete idiot, half full is in fact half empty and half-cooked chicken is just raw and likely loaded with E. Coli:-))

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th September 2016, 01:24 PM

I would rather know myself where this word came from since it appears on the so called Nimcha of two entirely separate regions.. How did the term pass from one region to another ostensibly from a Persian/Baluchi word up the Mediterranean then down the red sea or vica-versa...? And in discovering that will it throw light on the origin and transfer of species?... Otherwise will we not have gone off half-cock about this weapon?

28th September 2016, 10:56 AM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Great thread all...I have learned more about this style of weapon in one page of discussion than any number of books could have provided ( books on specialised subjects of weapons arent very available in this part of the world)... Library is the winner and great input from all is thus rewarded... ...Interesting note from Ariel on Nimcha .. There was a specific tribe of Baluchi called Nimcha. It gets little recognition and may not be related to the Nimcha Sword. Further we have a great note from Ariel on this word Nimcha that I already have a section relating to it on another thread...In fact, I have taken the liberty of cross referencing this additional information and I hope that is OK...see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=2&pp=30 It could be that the word Nimcha is related to a conception that the wielders of this sword were half or newly converted to Islam and since they were potentially recruited for mercenary work on the Zanj... by the Omani Sultans that the word was borrowed to name the sword.. The Nimcha. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 28th September 2016 at 11:33 AM.

28th September 2016, 01:24 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Giving the word Nimcha a full and fair airing. I would rather know myself where this word came from since it appears on the so called Nimcha of two entirely separate regions.. How did the term pass from one region to another ostensibly from a Persian/Baluchi word up the Mediterranean then down the red sea or vica-versa...? And in discovering that will it throw light on the origin and transfer of species?... Otherwise will we not have gone off half-cock about this weapon?

27th September 2016, 05:20 AM	#1
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 462	The term "Salawar" (also rendered salwar and shalvar,) was applied to these weapons because of its similarity to a type of breeches common in N. India, which are quite broad at the waist and taper continuously to the ankle. The analogy with the form of the blade is obvious. "Khyber knife" was coined by the British, for the first place they encountered Afghans armed with it. "Karakulak" refers specifically to a short, heavy utility knife of yataghan form carried primarily by stock breeders in Anatolia. Karakulak means "black ear," as the grips were virtually always carved of dark horn.

28th September 2016, 01:32 AM	#3
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 462	To clarify: The flyssa is particular to certain Algerian Berber groups; it is a local adaptation of the Ottoman yataghan. Yataghans which are much more closely recognizable as Ottoman in style (although with distinct characteristics) were used at urban centers such as Algiers and Tunis, where Ottoman influence dates from the early 16th century. While all manner of weapons which can at least be loosely termed "Ottoman" were used throughout Greece, the yataghan was particularly well suited to the kind of fighting done there, i.e. guerillas operating on foot in difficult terrain. There is one distinctively Greek form of yataghan blade which is virtually straight, with a distinctive upturned tip; it is often hollowground and/or fullered. The form survives on the Cretan dagger. Mounts range from very simple to remarkably elaborate.

28th September 2016, 04:36 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Nimcha may be translated most accurately as "half" or "little half" , kind of Enlglish " shorty". Per H.W. Bellew's "The races of Afghanistan" people of mixed ethnic origin or newly-converted Muslims whose adherence to Islam is still doubtful are referred as "nimchas".

28th September 2016, 12:50 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As per Elgood, Nim means half, and - cha is just a diminutive suffix. Thus, anything "half-size" or of mixed origin may conceivably be dubbed nimcha, be it a short boarding sword, waistcoat, or a man of only partially" good blood". No need to postulate transference of ethnicity onto a style of the weapon or vice versa. But a half-wit is a complete idiot, half full is in fact half empty and half-cooked chicken is just raw and likely loaded with E. Coli:-))