Blunderbuss with Cork Mail markings

rickystl · 5th September 2016, 07:18 PM

Hi Ken.

I happened on your Thread here and was reading same. And I clicked on the Link you provided to read the previous Thread on this blunderbuss. While scolling down reading, I noticed fellow Forum member Chris posted photos of a Spanish miquelet pistol for comment. As soon as I saw the photos of that pistol it immediatly occured to me that I have the SAME pistol, with a darker stock stain. While it generally looks good in the first photos, I'm so glad he decided not to purchase it. It's not even a real gun. The iron parts including the lock, belt clip, and even the barrel are castings (not forgings). The metal butt cap and backstrap are made of thin sheet metal, loosely fitted. This is a Tourist gun. Although the best looking one I've ever seen.
I know my comments here are not on the blunderbuss. But I thought it important that I post here in view of the connection to the previous Link.

Also, I'm glad you were "saved" from a potentially regretable purchase.

Rick

ChrisPer · 6th September 2016, 06:59 AM

That blunderbuss is well synthesised, unlike the ugly tourist gun. One further weakness is the inletting at lock and tang, which look somewhat worse than any original I have looked at (I am not an expert though). It makes me want to understand who made it and from what. The creation of charming copies for Victorian decorators is well known, and there are known past collectors who have had top-quality copies of rare guns built, ofttimes with no intent to deceive.

This one has to me the feel of a 1950s-60s faker, when top quality craftsmen were less likely to do this stuff and the 'distressed' look was a big part of making new craft furniture 'antique'.

The 'no makers mark on lock' and 'barrel stamp not square' is not at all definitive. We tend to see better-quality retailed pieces or known-quality military standards, but a body like the Cork Mail probably armed their guards from lower-quality trade suppliers, perhaps by tender. The makers would not necessarily pay a quality engraver to mark trade-sourced second tier locks. The Cork Mail stamp is done with old-looking individual letter stamps and reasonably well aligned though not perfect. Letter stamps are more what you would expect in smaller more remote or colonial organisations and consistent with the lower trade quality of the components.

The fly or die is also letter stamps but perhaps newer font, and is the worst feature on this gun I think. The inletting feels like the gun has been made up from two genuinely old but partial guns, and the cock clamp screw and other un-butchered screws are probably new-made.

Overall, I would give it house room if it were not priced too high or for a Cork historic exhibit. Its almost OK, but a fastidious collector or museum might decline to lower the tone of the collection with it.

Just my less-experienced opinion.

corrado26 · 6th September 2016, 11:31 AM

This pistol is a typical Indian made replika of the 1980s. I've added fotos of the same pistol and a foto of another type. Both pistols have exactly the same lock, a fact that is rarely found at original items.
corrado26

ChrisPer · 7th September 2016, 05:05 AM

Can I suggest that obvious decorator or tourist guns do not enhance this excellent forum? Perhaps a thread to help newcomers understand and distinguish decorators, or comparing real antecedents to decorator designs would be worthwhile.

Kmaddock · 7th September 2016, 08:19 AM

I agree in principle
I do think though the blunderbuss is not a tourist item and discussing does enhance the forum by showing what good copies are being made
Without this forum I would have bid north of 700 euro for this gun
A rogues gallery of fakes is a good idea
Regards
Ken

ChrisPer · 8th September 2016, 10:08 AM

Yes the blunderbuss is real, just not a museum-quality example. Its the others that bother me. In another forum I saw someone post a pic of a 'matchlock pistol' to support the idea that they were used in Europe, but it clearly was a cast-zinc decorator and the very weird stock designed I think so an ordinary piece of 75x42 timber could be used.

Kmaddock · 8th September 2016, 12:23 PM

Hi Chris
The blunderbuss is not real, it not a tourist item though, it is something made to deceive ( my opinion)
But I reckon without the mail stamps and a few other things I am not going to get into on an open forum, this blunderbuss could be made to completely fly under the radar and be purchased for not inconsiderable money as the genuine article.
I have purchased fake items and if is a learning experience
My lesson was not that expensive but we'll learned all the same.
Maybe a thread entitled " my mistake purchases" would be handy as a reference of what is out there.
I am not a regular enough contributer to this forum to start such a thread though as it is not really what the forum is for.
Regards
Ken

5th September 2016, 07:18 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hi Ken. I happened on your Thread here and was reading same. And I clicked on the Link you provided to read the previous Thread on this blunderbuss. While scolling down reading, I noticed fellow Forum member Chris posted photos of a Spanish miquelet pistol for comment. As soon as I saw the photos of that pistol it immediatly occured to me that I have the SAME pistol, with a darker stock stain. While it generally looks good in the first photos, I'm so glad he decided not to purchase it. It's not even a real gun. The iron parts including the lock, belt clip, and even the barrel are castings (not forgings). The metal butt cap and backstrap are made of thin sheet metal, loosely fitted. This is a Tourist gun. Although the best looking one I've ever seen. I know my comments here are not on the blunderbuss. But I thought it important that I post here in view of the connection to the previous Link. Also, I'm glad you were "saved" from a potentially regretable purchase. Rick Attached Images

6th September 2016, 11:31 AM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,237	This pistol is a typical Indian made replika of the 1980s. I've added fotos of the same pistol and a foto of another type. Both pistols have exactly the same lock, a fact that is rarely found at original items. corrado26 Attached Images

6th September 2016, 06:59 AM	#2
ChrisPer Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 35	That blunderbuss is well synthesised, unlike the ugly tourist gun. One further weakness is the inletting at lock and tang, which look somewhat worse than any original I have looked at (I am not an expert though). It makes me want to understand who made it and from what. The creation of charming copies for Victorian decorators is well known, and there are known past collectors who have had top-quality copies of rare guns built, ofttimes with no intent to deceive. This one has to me the feel of a 1950s-60s faker, when top quality craftsmen were less likely to do this stuff and the 'distressed' look was a big part of making new craft furniture 'antique'. The 'no makers mark on lock' and 'barrel stamp not square' is not at all definitive. We tend to see better-quality retailed pieces or known-quality military standards, but a body like the Cork Mail probably armed their guards from lower-quality trade suppliers, perhaps by tender. The makers would not necessarily pay a quality engraver to mark trade-sourced second tier locks. The Cork Mail stamp is done with old-looking individual letter stamps and reasonably well aligned though not perfect. Letter stamps are more what you would expect in smaller more remote or colonial organisations and consistent with the lower trade quality of the components. The fly or die is also letter stamps but perhaps newer font, and is the worst feature on this gun I think. The inletting feels like the gun has been made up from two genuinely old but partial guns, and the cock clamp screw and other un-butchered screws are probably new-made. Overall, I would give it house room if it were not priced too high or for a Cork historic exhibit. Its almost OK, but a fastidious collector or museum might decline to lower the tone of the collection with it. Just my less-experienced opinion.

7th September 2016, 05:05 AM	#4
ChrisPer Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 35	Can I suggest that obvious decorator or tourist guns do not enhance this excellent forum? Perhaps a thread to help newcomers understand and distinguish decorators, or comparing real antecedents to decorator designs would be worthwhile.

7th September 2016, 08:19 AM	#5
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	I agree in principle I do think though the blunderbuss is not a tourist item and discussing does enhance the forum by showing what good copies are being made Without this forum I would have bid north of 700 euro for this gun A rogues gallery of fakes is a good idea Regards Ken

8th September 2016, 10:08 AM	#6
ChrisPer Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 35	Yes the blunderbuss is real, just not a museum-quality example. Its the others that bother me. In another forum I saw someone post a pic of a 'matchlock pistol' to support the idea that they were used in Europe, but it clearly was a cast-zinc decorator and the very weird stock designed I think so an ordinary piece of 75x42 timber could be used.

8th September 2016, 12:23 PM	#7
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Chris The blunderbuss is not real, it not a tourist item though, it is something made to deceive ( my opinion) But I reckon without the mail stamps and a few other things I am not going to get into on an open forum, this blunderbuss could be made to completely fly under the radar and be purchased for not inconsiderable money as the genuine article. I have purchased fake items and if is a learning experience My lesson was not that expensive but we'll learned all the same. Maybe a thread entitled " my mistake purchases" would be handy as a reference of what is out there. I am not a regular enough contributer to this forum to start such a thread though as it is not really what the forum is for. Regards Ken