Plains stone axe for ?ing

[David]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Thank you for your interest. This piece is sewn with sinew, but supplies of thread sinew can be found on the internet. The stone takes some skill to make. How much time does it take to do this? How much money does a faker , fantasy reproduction artist want from thier efforts?

It's an interesting item for sure Tim. One possibility doesn't really seem to be considered here. Sometimes hobbyists create pieces like this purely for their own enjoyment. A am currently working on my own battle axe right now. Forged the head from a railway spike. So it may not necessarily be a matter of how much effort a faker might be willing to put into such a piece for the effort. I have put many hours of work into my axe and shed a bit of blood over it besides. It's about the love and accomplishment of making the thing, not any money since it is not for sale. But years down the line when some one finds it in my estate sale...???
Of course my axe isn't being made to appear to be from any one culture so it probably won't fool anyone. But lots of folks make such things as close to original specs as they can just to show they can still do it.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes some people are obviously prepared to spend a lot of money on potentially hobby work.

[Tim Simmons]

Interesting objects, late 19th century.

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...0%20%2F%204558

[Tim Simmons]

I just cannot help myself now I have found more.

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...0%20%2F%209073

[Tim Simmons]

I just want to say that I have identified the stone. "Rhyolite" This pink Rhyolite {high grade} is high in silica which makes knapping possible. It is a volcanic stone. If you look carefully you can see holes where gas has escaped. These holes are known as "Vugs" I am sure you needed to know that.

scroll down
http://www.thudscave.com/petroglyphs/knappable.htm

[Tim Simmons]

Stuff about Shoshone stone knapping from 1860s onwards, the women were the best at knapping. The Shoshone would have access to the high silica rhyolite quarries which is found in the western USA.

http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/bl...ven%201992.pdf

[Tim Simmons]

This was on ebay and an offer was excepted. To me it looks very much like a very enthusiastic copy. The blue is so very blue the brass studs are sooo old looking. Glad I paid at least 10 times less. I have saved pictures for when the ebay ones have gone. Also flint rather than rhyolite which is clearly discernable. One easy to nap the other hard.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORIG-NATIV...vip=true&rt=nc

[stekemest]

Tim, with my limited knowledge of plains weaponry, I do think your piece could be "old" in the sense that it was probably made about 100 years ago. Native Americans produced wallhangers, pieces for trade and use at powwows during that time. However, I don't think it was ever practically used as a weapon or tool. The lines between an "authentic" and a "tourist" piece seem to blur when it comes to Native American antiquities made during the reservation period. Weapons made before that time are very hard to find.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes I never suggested it was a battle weapon earlier in the thread.

[Tim Simmons]

I am having a problem with the term Reservation period. It starts around 1860 and is not without conflict right up to 1890's and latter. The use of the term seems to down grade Native American culture. As if all fighting stopped and Native American life was devoid of its own sophistication. This is odd as collectors. We accept the weapons, art works and cultural sophistication of say the Zulu and other South African peoples also living on restricted home lands. The artifacts of the Zulu for example do not get the same somewhat scornful treatment. Why is this? Genuine 19th century South African artifacts are very common. Weapons, ceremonial regalia all very common but not questioned is the same way. Why should genuine artifacts of the Plains Nations be not so common or at least plentiful?

[Tim Simmons]

I am making a photo comparison of these two pieces. I could argue that we accept derivations of a standard form of weapons from every culture weapons come from, so why not Native American? I am adding a lot of links about trade pigments and the use of laundry blue to paint artifacts. It is clear that some bluing pigments would have been available from the earliest trade contacts on the northern plains and latter from the mid 19th century synthetic blue and latter other synthetic pigments. I think these pictures show some differences in age and conception. One appears to me as ridged and over done. I feel the one a have shows a more free form. The brass tacks spiral around the wood haft. The whole design is more thoughtful and considered. On close inspection the the two pieces are quite different.

https://www.cac-accr.ca/files/pdf/Vol22_doc4.pdf

http://cool.conservation-us.org/byfo...1999/1328.html

http://www.womenofthefurtrade.com/wst_page18.html

http://www.oldandinteresting.com/laundry-blue.aspx

[Tim Simmons]

Just to show that not all old brass knobs have to be scummy. The museum might keep the item clean to some degree?

[Tim Simmons]

Removed from ebay.

Another flint tomahawk of questionably age. Was offered at a more reasonable price though. The wood looks painted. Again aged brass, and white stiff looking leather. Is somebody making these in a craft workshop? We know ethnographic weapons most often follow a traditional form? Neither of the two show the same quality of knapping as on the rhyolite stone.

[Ian]

Tim:

The answer to your question is very complex. I live in Minnesota, which has a long history of interactions between whites and Native Americans (mainly Lakota Sioux and Ojibwe). Old attitudes die hard but there has been much progress here over the last 50+ years. It is a long and complicated story, and not one that can be told adequately here. There have been many books written on the subject, and each part of the US has its own history of how whites came to displace Native Americans, and the legacies of those interactions that persist today.

You make a good case for collectors of the weapons from Plains tribes to consider those developed after contact with whites as being meaningful variants of more traditional weapons.

I agree that the notion of a "Reservation Period," to describe the confinement of tribes to relatively small areas, is not particularly helpful. There have been several "Reservation Periods" beginning with the initial containment of Native Americans who had been free to roam widely in their customary manner, to periods of abject poverty and starvation with erosion of their traditional cultures, to the modern Casino-fueled economies of many tribes. [The latter refers to the presence of gambling casinos that are owned by the tribe. Since each reservation is a sovereign territory, state gambling laws do not apply and casinos can be operated--hence enormous income for often a small number of local tribes people.]

Your example of the Zulu and other South African weapons being viewed differently from modern Native American examples overlooks the fact that collectors are from outside the region in which these are produced. In the U.S. we have many collectors for whom these are locally produced goods and for whom there may be a long and personal family history of contact with Native Americans. For example, I know several families who lost relatives to raids during the so-called Sioux Uprising of 1862. Even after 150 years there are still lingering feelings and prejudices in this part of the country. You might like to read online about the Dakota War of 1862 to get some of the details.

It's complicated.

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I am having a problem with the term Reservation period. It starts around 1860 and is not without conflict right up to 1890's and latter. The use of the term seems to down grade Native American culture. As if all fighting stopped and Native American life was devoid of its own sophistication. This is odd as collectors. We accept the weapons, art works and cultural sophistication of say the Zulu and other South African peoples also living on restricted home lands. The artifacts of the Zulu for example do not get the same somewhat scornful treatment. Why is this? Genuine 19th century South African artifacts are very common. Weapons, ceremonial regalia all very common but not questioned is the same way. Why should genuine artifacts of the Plains Nations be not so common or at least plentiful?

[Tim Simmons]

Just want to add this as it is fun to read.

https://www.realorrepro.com/article/...dian-Artifacts

[VANDOO]

THE STONE PARTS OF NATIVE AMERICAN ARTIFACTS ARE BY NO MEANS RARE IN NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICA. WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE THOUSANDS OF YEARS AND THE UNTOLD MILLIONS OF TRIBESMEN IT IS NOT SURPRISING.
THERE ARE QUITE A FEW INTACT WAR CLUBS, SPEARS, SHIELDS, ROBES AND OTHER ARTIFACTS MOSTLY IN MUSEUMS OR PRIVATE COLLECTIONS. BUT THERE ARE MUCH LARGER NUMBERS OF THOSE WITH NO PROVENANCE THAT ARE MADE TO LOOK OLD TO SELL TO COLLECTORS OR FOR WESTERN DECOR. THIS HAS BEING GOING ON FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND IS STILL DONE TODAY. I KNOW QUITE A FEW WHO DO THIS LOCALLY AND IN TEXAS. THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF EXCELLENT FLINT NAPPERS THAT CAN REPLICATE JUST ABOUT ANYTHING AS WELL AS MANY MORE WHO CAN TURN OUT DECENT POINTS BUT NO MASTERPIECES. WE JUST HAD OUR YEARLY POINT AND FOSSIL SHOW HERE IN TULSA YESTERDAY AND THERE WERE THOUSANDS OF ARTIFACTS FOR SALE. MOST AT THIS SHOW ARE AUTHENTIC OR IF RECENT WORK SOLD AS SUCH. WE HAVE MANY EXPERTS ON HAND SO IT WOULD NOT BE EASY TO GET AWAY WITH BRINGING FAKES TO SELL. AT FLEA MARKETS AND GUN SHOWS THAT IS NOT THE CASE SO LOTS OF THIS TYPE OF ITEM CAN BE FOUND FOR SALE ALONG WITH THE OCCASIONAL REAL ITEMS. WE COULD SEPARATE THESE COMPLETELY INTACT ITEMS INTO SEVERAL CATEGORY'S.
#1. AUTHENTIC ARTIFACTS INTACT AND WITH GOOD PROVENIENCE
#2. AUTHENTIC ARTIFACTS INTACT ,DOUBTFUL OR NO PROVENIENCE
#3. AUTHENTIC STONE BLADE OR POINTS WITH A RESTORED HANDLE ALL
DONE USING THE PROPER OLD TECHNIQUES AND MATERIALS.
#4. AUTHENTIC STONE BUT MODERN TECHNIQUES AND MATERIALS USED
FOR THE RESTORATION.
#5. ITEMS MADE USING TRADITIONAL MATERIALS AND TECHNIQUES MADE
BY NATIVE AMERICANS FOR PERSONAL OR CEREMONIAL USE WITHIN THE
TRIBE IN RECENT TIMES.
#6.WELL MADE REPLICAS BY NATIVE AMERICANS IN THE PAST FOR WILD
WEST SHOWS OR FOR SALE TO THOSE WHO TRAVEL.
THESE FIRST SIX ARE GOOD COLLECTIBLES IN A ETHNOGRAPHIC SENSE WITH AT LEAST SOME ORIGINAL PARTS OR TRIBAL CONNECTIONS.
#7. POORLY MADE REPLICAS, MADE IN THE PAST BY NATIVE AMERICANS
FOR SALE IN SOUVENIR SHOPS.
#8. REPLICAS WITH ALL NEW MATERIALS SOLD PRIMARILY FOR
DECORATIONS.
#9. ITEMS MADE AND ANTIQUED TO FOOL COLLECTORS INTO THINKING
THEY ARE AUTHENTIC THESE ARE MADE BY NATIVE AMERICAN AS
WELL AS OTHERS AND ARE INTENTIONAL FRAUDS AT LEAST BY THE
MAKERS. AT TIMES THE RE SELLERS DO NOT KNOW OR PERHAPS DON'T
CARE.
ONE FELLOW I KNOW LOOKS NATIVE AMERICAN BUT IS NOT AND SPECIALIZES IN BUYING CHEAP OLD LONG GUNS, ADDING SOME RAWHIDE, PAINT BEADS AND FEATHERS AND A FEW ANTIQUES BRASS TACKS. HIS WORK LOOKS VERY GOOD AND HE HAS NO TROUBLE FINDING BUYERS WHO ARE MOSTLY DEALERS IN SUCH ITEMS. HE ALSO MAKES UP A GOOD STORY TO GO WITH EACH ITEM.
MY PERSONAL WAY OF DEALING WITH THIS IS ALL STONE POINTS ARE DOUBTFUL UNLESS I FIND THEM MYSELF OR A TRUSTED FRIEND FINDS THEM. THOSE WITH PAPERS BY AN EXPERT I KNOW PERSONALLY ARE LIKELY GOOD. EVERYTHING ELSE IS SUSPECT BUT IF I SEE SOMETHING I LIKE AT A FAIR PRICE I WILL BUY IT ANYWAY. EVEN EXPERIENCED COLLECTORS ARE NEVER PERFECT ALL THE TIME, BUT THAT IS PART OF THE ADVENTURE OF COLLECTING.

[mross]

Tim, looks like you have it bad. Welcome to the wonderful world of artifact collecting. I am on this forum occasionally, yes I am one of the collectors you mentioned in your first post. Here is a link to another forum that specializes in your new obsession.

http://www.arrowheadology.com/

[Tim Simmons]

Thank you for that link. Provides a great deal of food for thought. Yes faking and reproductions add to collecting problems. The foul cry fake is a way to end any real investigation. I often think especially where an object does not clearly fit in " fake " category who really has the authority and ultimate knowledge. Those who have been in the scene for a long time and gain a kind of following and often dealership never seem to have fakes . Only you as a newbie or potential customer wanting to perhaps make a trade. I came across a very interesting Web page about ancient Peru ceramics. The jist of it was some experts are actually gaining their knowledge and expertise on fakes. I will add it when I find it again.

[mross]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Thank you for that link. Provides a great deal of food for thought. Yes faking and reproductions add to collecting problems. The foul cry fake is a way to end any real investigation. I often think especially where an object does not clearly fit in " fake " category who really has the authority and ultimate knowledge. Those who have been in the scene for a long time and gain a kind of following and often dealership never seem to have fakes . Only you as a newbie or potential customer wanting to perhaps make a trade. I came across a very interesting Web page about ancient Peru ceramics. The jist of it was some experts are actually gaining their knowledge and expertise on fakes. I will add it when I find it again.

If you want to get really crazy here is progression for your consideration.
1)Total fake modern made.
2)Real broken artifact made into something new;
a) Made into something new in modern times
b) Made into something "new" in ancient times.
3)Real artifact made into something new
a) Modified by modern man
b) Modified by ancient man - if you want to see a artifact collector cry show him a clovis point made into something else.
4)Real artifact "enhanced"
a) Enhanced by modern man -this could be anything from resharpening to fixing a base to augmenting serrations.
b) Enhanced by ancient man -see above.
So where do you draw the line? If you think any of these things are easy to detect I refer you to "Authenticating Ancient Indian Artifacts, How to recognize reproduction and altered artifacts" by Jim Bennett

[Tim Simmons]

Well there is just as equal chance that by luck or judgment or long observation and museum pounding that you just got it right '

[Tim Simmons]

Another potential fake. Better pictures when I have it.

[Tim Simmons]

I should really start a new thread with this piece as it is very unlikely to be from the northern plains.

[Tim Simmons]

I have it now 31 inches top to end of haft. Hide covered whipy flex stick. Coarse horse hair tassle, sewn hide with fine multi strand horse hair. It has a "fake"? collection number 17P on the stone. Is it a fake just because it is made of simple natural materials? Is it a fake because it looks aged? Is it a fake because people still knap stone? As a sculptor used to making "art work" I would be most impressed by somebody could get the inside spaces to look the way they do but that is just my opinion. It is not a big heavy weapon. All I can say is that if a warrior can running at me or at speed on horse back, and struck me with it. I would probably not be standing up again.

It may not be from the Northern Plains but saying that the plains are huge and there is no law that says all clubs are this or that form.

Anyway here it is. You can pay more for an obvious fantasy piece to hang with your dream catcher.

[Tim Simmons]

https://collections.peabody.harvard....stone-thick-pi

[Ian]

Tim,

I know very little about these axes, but perhaps a few comments on the condition of it. I'm not seeing any wear or tear to the leather. The edges are straight, with no tears or losses, and no holes or scuffing of the flat surfaces. I would expect to see such damage with a piece that had been used. It may never have been used, of course, but an old piece should still show some wear or minor damage, I think, just from the ravages of time.

[Tim Simmons]

Rather like the piece in the last link.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Rather like the piece in the last link.

Except that one had been in collectors' hands since 1925, and probably carefully preserved.