Oldest Known European Metal Tool ? The Start of it all

Roland_M · 26th August 2016, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Shield

I have not read a paper of casting this early ? do you know the author? and Paper? I have look at the open surfaces and seen no micro-porosity under magnification on any exposed surfaces as would be expected in melted or " cast" and the And since I'm not as well versed as I'd like , and slightly dull of mind , I would make a few comments . First slag does not necessarily mean casting but certainly would indicate melting . Second have moulds or patterns been found ? This piece as my comments indicated is heavily corroded , its not flaws in a " Casting " and the Northwestern Indians for one made even large Knifes and such where made from copper masses by hammering.

I made a little research and I found out that the biggest copper nuggets have a weight of more than 2 kg or 65 oz. This is big enough to forge a tool without melting.
I think it was melted because they had no tools to forge metal.
I believe, this tools were casted (like the axe of Ötzi) and grinded on a stone.
The corrosion means not much, maybe it got lost in an acid environment.

Here are some sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic

and probably useless for you but much more informative: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupfersteinzeit

Silver Shield · 26th August 2016, 05:26 PM

This thread was started for discourse about origins or weapons ect, and it is good to have discussion of facts and beliefs in a friendly manner . I'm not stating that this axe " Is the Oldest" but it represents the early starting technologies of metal use , and your input of information is good and welcome .Well, as most students of Archeology and Paleoanthropology understand and make allowances for , there is constant changes in ideas and understanding of our past with new information . As far as date .. 7,500 years equals 5,500 BCE( Before the Common Era) BCE used to be call BC but now its consider Politically Incorrect to use "Before Christ". Copper occurs in very Large masses , the largest know mass , was found in 1857 in the US State of Michigan weighing 420 tonnes .As far as casting verses just hammered into shape , maybe I did not include enough information as I did not want to make long and boring thread. The object shows distinct directional layering in its decomposition as would be expected in hammering vs casting , and has" inclusions" that is naturally occurring foreign matter in its composition , and does not have the somewhat characteristic gas bubbles, micro porosity nor rounded pits of casting . The pits that do exist are irregular in their structure and form . I have dug a lot of metal in excavations , and I disagree that the patina is not indicative of its age vs a acidic environment , natural copper is amazingly pure vs other naturally occurring metal masses and its decomposition would usually be a little more uniform in most environments . I have studied a lot of copper dug in the same region too . And the Objects of the period I am suggesting from know sites. I have been as a guest of several foreign governments for Archaeological related reasons , have had easy access to the collections not on display and objects from the same areas usually have a certain look . On hammering , give me a good copper mass, a heat source as in a fires coals and some good hard stone , such as Quartzsite and I guarantee you in a hour or two I could reproduce this Object . Stone as a tool is highly underrated by those who have not used it :-) This is all friendly and I'm not a expert in anything but a student . plus I cannot write nor spell .

Michael P.
Former president and founder of the Central AZ Chapter of the Archeological Institute of America

David · 26th August 2016, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Shield

Michael P.
Former president and founder of the Central AZ Chapter of the American Institute of Archeology

Michael, it's nice to know that we have a former representative from such a prestigious organization, but i am having some trouble locating any informational reference to the American Institute of Archeology on the internet.
I can find the Archaeological Institute of America, the Society for American Archaeology, the Society for Archaeological Sciences, the Society for Historical Archaeology, etc., but no website for your organization. I do find it sometimes listed in resumés here and there so obviously it exists in some capacity. Is it a defunct organization? If not, is there a website we can visit that can explain the work this organization has done?

Silver Shield · 26th August 2016, 06:13 PM

Here is Site for the Archaeological Institute of America, the oldest and a well respected Society in the USA . Most professional archaeologists and hordes of those interested , amateur archaeologists and mentally deranged are members . They support work and publish some studies and put out the magazine " Archaeology". In the meetings once a month they bring in Well respected and important Academics from around the US and world ,even such people as Salema Ickrum , of the Egyptian Museum . Some of my house guests at the time where just plain , Cool. The only complaint I ever had was one middle aged Archaeologist who did not like getting in and out of the Corvette I was driving at the time . The Chapter I formed was based at Arizona State University, which has a very respected Archaeological department . I was not a ASU staff member , but have always been a independent professional in related fields .

https://www.archaeological.org/

Silver Shield · 26th August 2016, 06:14 PM

I never get title right its been awhile and I am old .. LOL also a couple pictures of a more solid nature , naturally occurring , Copper can be found in very large masses and does not always have such a spidery shape or such obvious attachments of inclusions as shown in a previous post . One nugget in these pictures weighs 44g. Easy to work with it actually.

David · 26th August 2016, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Shield

Here is Site for the Archaeological Institute of America, the oldest and a well respected Society in the USA .
https://www.archaeological.org/

Thanks. I couldn't find it because to used the wrong spelling in your original post, an acceptable, though lesser used version of the word "archaeology" that drops the second "a".

Silver Shield · 26th August 2016, 08:51 PM

David ,
Thank you for your comments sir, and interest . Yes I am a archaic and cannot spell nor write ,otherwise I would have most likely been in a different field .I'm just a stylistic analyzer in life . LOL

ChrisPer · 28th August 2016, 03:21 PM

Interesting discussion, thank you.
Has the object been subjected to spark spectroscopic analysis? I would expect native copper to have a clear compositional signature.

26th August 2016, 05:26 PM	#2
Silver Shield Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Phoenix Arizona USA Posts: 32	All is meant well and for informational discussion This thread was started for discourse about origins or weapons ect, and it is good to have discussion of facts and beliefs in a friendly manner . I'm not stating that this axe " Is the Oldest" but it represents the early starting technologies of metal use , and your input of information is good and welcome .Well, as most students of Archeology and Paleoanthropology understand and make allowances for , there is constant changes in ideas and understanding of our past with new information . As far as date .. 7,500 years equals 5,500 BCE( Before the Common Era) BCE used to be call BC but now its consider Politically Incorrect to use "Before Christ". Copper occurs in very Large masses , the largest know mass , was found in 1857 in the US State of Michigan weighing 420 tonnes .As far as casting verses just hammered into shape , maybe I did not include enough information as I did not want to make long and boring thread. The object shows distinct directional layering in its decomposition as would be expected in hammering vs casting , and has" inclusions" that is naturally occurring foreign matter in its composition , and does not have the somewhat characteristic gas bubbles, micro porosity nor rounded pits of casting . The pits that do exist are irregular in their structure and form . I have dug a lot of metal in excavations , and I disagree that the patina is not indicative of its age vs a acidic environment , natural copper is amazingly pure vs other naturally occurring metal masses and its decomposition would usually be a little more uniform in most environments . I have studied a lot of copper dug in the same region too . And the Objects of the period I am suggesting from know sites. I have been as a guest of several foreign governments for Archaeological related reasons , have had easy access to the collections not on display and objects from the same areas usually have a certain look . On hammering , give me a good copper mass, a heat source as in a fires coals and some good hard stone , such as Quartzsite and I guarantee you in a hour or two I could reproduce this Object . Stone as a tool is highly underrated by those who have not used it :-) This is all friendly and I'm not a expert in anything but a student . plus I cannot write nor spell . Michael P. Former president and founder of the Central AZ Chapter of the Archeological Institute of America Last edited by Silver Shield; 26th August 2016 at 08:44 PM. Reason: spelling

26th August 2016, 06:13 PM	#4
Silver Shield Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Phoenix Arizona USA Posts: 32	Here is site Here is Site for the Archaeological Institute of America, the oldest and a well respected Society in the USA . Most professional archaeologists and hordes of those interested , amateur archaeologists and mentally deranged are members . They support work and publish some studies and put out the magazine " Archaeology". In the meetings once a month they bring in Well respected and important Academics from around the US and world ,even such people as Salema Ickrum , of the Egyptian Museum . Some of my house guests at the time where just plain , Cool. The only complaint I ever had was one middle aged Archaeologist who did not like getting in and out of the Corvette I was driving at the time . The Chapter I formed was based at Arizona State University, which has a very respected Archaeological department . I was not a ASU staff member , but have always been a independent professional in related fields . https://www.archaeological.org/ Last edited by Silver Shield; 26th August 2016 at 08:46 PM. Reason: spelling corrected

26th August 2016, 06:14 PM	#5
Silver Shield Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Phoenix Arizona USA Posts: 32	LOL I never get title right its been awhile and I am old .. LOL also a couple pictures of a more solid nature , naturally occurring , Copper can be found in very large masses and does not always have such a spidery shape or such obvious attachments of inclusions as shown in a previous post . One nugget in these pictures weighs 44g. Easy to work with it actually. Attached Images Last edited by Silver Shield; 26th August 2016 at 08:18 PM.

26th August 2016, 08:51 PM	#7
Silver Shield Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Phoenix Arizona USA Posts: 32	Thank You David , Thank you for your comments sir, and interest . Yes I am a archaic and cannot spell nor write ,otherwise I would have most likely been in a different field .I'm just a stylistic analyzer in life . LOL

28th August 2016, 03:21 PM	#8
ChrisPer Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 35	Interesting discussion, thank you. Has the object been subjected to spark spectroscopic analysis? I would expect native copper to have a clear compositional signature.