Classifying shashka--a serious discussion of typology

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Strangely, both very much resemble the Algerean boarding cutlasses as shown in Elgood's book on Balkan weapons.

Like these?

[ariel]

Yes.
The very same:-)

[Andreas]

Hello Kamachate,
Your posts have been very interesting and informative. Searching in Loewe’s Dictionary of the Circassian Language (pub. 1854), I could find the following words for sword/sabre. Do you think you could comment on them?
Thanks,
Andreas

[estcrh]

So how would this be described? It looks like a "Russian" shashka to me.

[ariel]

Well, can I call i this one a "pseudoshashka"?:-)
It is a Russian made chimera of a regulation Russian saber blade with the all-silver handle and a .... handguard. The distal part of the handle is polygonal, which was never done by the Caucasian masters, the artistic engraving are alo not Caucasian. I can't say much about the pommel, because I can't even see whether it is eared ( presumably), but the suspension system is totally unknown an We can't even say whether it was worn edge up. There is a monogram of Ekaterina II on the handle and an inscription on the throat says something about Don settlement. There seems to be a assayer's mark, but I can't see the details ( place of manufacture).

Just as I said, this saber borrowed heavily from the Caucasian pattern, but the master deviated enormously from the classical pattern.

One can call it an old Russian idea of a shashka, but it's master either was not well acquainted with the real examples, or more likely decided to create something "different".

How to address it? Any which way one chooses. Russian shashka, Russian pseudoshashka, Russian free imitation of a shashka, Russian saber with eared pommel .... Anything else comes to mind? I am game.
It is in the same category as the Afghani one or the Russian regulation one.. Shashka but not quite:-)

Perhaps, its main value is the proof that even in the 18 century shashkas were extant in the Caucasus and served as an inspiration for the Russian jewelers. We did not get to see the originals, but the copies testify to their existence.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, can I call i this one a "pseudoshashka"?:-)

I think this one qualifies.

[kamachate]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Hello Kamachate,
Your posts have been very interesting and informative. Searching in Loewe’s Dictionary of the Circassian Language (pub. 1854), I could find the following words for sword/sabre. Do you think you could comment on them?
Thanks,
Andreas

Dear Andreas, I know the dictionary. Although it is a good attempt for its era, it is rather an insufficient source for Circassian language (at least, today). Most words were just "found" during face to face conversations, and as noted in the preface, the common language between the researcher and the Circassians was "Turkish" (during that time, most Circassian translators were using Crimean Tatar dialect, rather than Turkish). The method of the researcher was to imitate or to show an object, then to ask what it is. That's why, there are many words answered or "understood" wrong.
These people were mostly from different tribes of the Circassians, and sometimes, even Abazins (who talk a dialect of Aphazian, not Adyghe language). As a result, there are many misunderstandings (I am not mentioning the misspellings or wrong transcriptions, but I can give credit for this, I can never write the true transcription of the Circassian words .

About the subject, words given for Sword (Sabre) are all variants of seshkho (сэшхо) = shashka
seys-shooâ is directly referring to seshkho, and sesh-wey is the same word in genitive case.
The word written as tzéshwey is most probably s-seshkhoe(y), which means "my shashka"
The first correspondence for "sabre" above this is a little bit more correct, because "seshkhém" means "the shashka".
However, the second word given may explain the tragedy, because the word given as "pee-yoop sho" is not a noun, but a verb that any Circassian can understand: It means "cutting", or, literally, "it cuts"
Best

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by kamachate

Dear Andreas, I know the dictionary. Although it is a good attempt for its era, it is rather an insufficient source for Circassian language (at least, today). Most words were just "found" during face to face conversations, and as noted in the preface, the common language between the researcher and the Circassians was "Turkish" (during that time, most Circassian translators were using Crimean Tatar dialect, rather than Turkish). The method of the researcher was to imitate or to show an object, then to ask what it is. That's why, there are many words answered or "understood" wrong.
These people were mostly from different tribes of the Circassians, and sometimes, even Abazins (who talk a dialect of Aphazian, not Adyghe language). As a result, there are many misunderstandings (I am not mentioning the misspellings or wrong transcriptions, but I can give credit for this, I can never write the true transcription of the Circassian words .

About the subject, words given for Sword (Sabre) are all variants of seshkho (сэшхо) = shashka
seys-shooâ is directly referring to seshkho, and sesh-wey is the same word in genitive case.
The word written as tzéshwey is most probably s-seshkhoe(y), which means "my shashka"
The first correspondence for "sabre" above this is a little bit more correct, because "seshkhém" means "the shashka".
However, the second word given may explain the tragedy, because the word given as "pee-yoop sho" is not a noun, but a verb that any Circassian can understand: It means "cutting", or, literally, "it cuts"
Best

Kamachate, you just explained why westerners decided on a certain name for a weapon even when there were other regional names, they just picked one that they were told and that they could pronounce and stuck with it. Now we scratch our heads trying to discover just why they used a certain name instead of another when there may be no rational explanation.

[kamachate]

Then, here is a pseudo shashka from me
The hilt is goat's horn. The iron expand of the blade goes until the end of the hilt, nearly have the shape of it. The places of the rivets can give a clue. The "ears" of the hilt are not as usual. The fuller is strange, and one can note the strange curve where the fuller begins. The blade narrows after the fuller, and slightly expands after it, as if there is a kind of "yalman". I have never seen any parallels of this one
Someone told me that this was "one of the earliest examples of shashkas", but I did not buy it (if only it was )
Best.

[ariel]

I think you were right not buying it. Nothing "early"or "archaic", just rudimentary workmanship of a not very talented cutler , made for a very poor customer.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by kamachate

Then, here is a pseudo shashka from me
The hilt is goat's horn. The iron expand of the blade goes until the end of the hilt, nearly have the shape of it. The places of the rivets can give a clue. The "ears" of the hilt are not as usual. The fuller is strange, and one can note the strange curve where the fuller begins. The blade narrows after the fuller, and slightly expands after it, as if there is a kind of "yalman". I have never seen any parallels of this one
Someone told me that this was "one of the earliest examples of shashkas", but I did not buy it (if only it was )
Best.

Very crude and basic, this was probably a very easy sword to make and it did the job, here is another crude example....both Afghan???

[Ian]

kamachate:

Thank you for the lesson in the Circassian language. Much appreciated and very interesting contribution to this discussion. It just goes to show how complicated and ultimately frustrating the "name game" can be for those of us who are outside the culture.

Ian

Originally Posted by kamachate

Dear Andreas, I know the dictionary. Although it is a good attempt for its era, it is rather an insufficient source for Circassian language (at least, today). Most words were just "found" during face to face conversations, and as noted in the preface, the common language between the researcher and the Circassians was "Turkish" (during that time, most Circassian translators were using Crimean Tatar dialect, rather than Turkish). The method of the researcher was to imitate or to show an object, then to ask what it is. That's why, there are many words answered or "understood" wrong.
These people were mostly from different tribes of the Circassians, and sometimes, even Abazins (who talk a dialect of Aphazian, not Adyghe language). As a result, there are many misunderstandings (I am not mentioning the misspellings or wrong transcriptions, but I can give credit for this, I can never write the true transcription of the Circassian words .

About the subject, words given for Sword (Sabre) are all variants of seshkho (сэшхо) = shashka
seys-shooâ is directly referring to seshkho, and sesh-wey is the same word in genitive case.
The word written as tzéshwey is most probably s-seshkhoe(y), which means "my shashka"
The first correspondence for "sabre" above this is a little bit more correct, because "seshkhém" means "the shashka".
However, the second word given may explain the tragedy, because the word given as "pee-yoop sho" is not a noun, but a verb that any Circassian can understand: It means "cutting", or, literally, "it cuts"
Best

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by kamachate

Dear Andreas, I know the dictionary. Although it is a good attempt for its era, it is rather an insufficient source for Circassian language (at least, today). Most words were just "found" during face to face conversations, and as noted in the preface, the common language between the researcher and the Circassians was "Turkish" (during that time, most Circassian translators were using Crimean Tatar dialect, rather than Turkish). The method of the researcher was to imitate or to show an object, then to ask what it is. That's why, there are many words answered or "understood" wrong.
These people were mostly from different tribes of the Circassians, and sometimes, even Abazins (who talk a dialect of Aphazian, not Adyghe language). As a result, there are many misunderstandings (I am not mentioning the misspellings or wrong transcriptions, but I can give credit for this, I can never write the true transcription of the Circassian words .

About the subject, words given for Sword (Sabre) are all variants of seshkho (сэшхо) = shashka
seys-shooâ is directly referring to seshkho, and sesh-wey is the same word in genitive case.
The word written as tzéshwey is most probably s-seshkhoe(y), which means "my shashka"
The first correspondence for "sabre" above this is a little bit more correct, because "seshkhém" means "the shashka".
However, the second word given may explain the tragedy, because the word given as "pee-yoop sho" is not a noun, but a verb that any Circassian can understand: It means "cutting", or, literally, "it cuts"
Best

Thank you very much for your answer.
Regards,
Andreas

[ariel]

Kamachate,
Thank you very much for yout lesson.
It is very funny and very sobering.
Unquestionably, that's how it went all over the world when curious Westerners compiled books on exotic arms using private translator-mediated conversations with the locals.

Hundreds of years later their readers passionately clash in pseudo-academic pseudo- linguistic battles : saif or nimcha? Kard or karud? Tulwar, pulwar, pulouar or just shamshir? We were so happy when the "oldest" name for the Khyber knife was found: Selaawa. Now I am wondering what that old toothless Afghani had in mind:-)