Classifying shashka--a serious discussion of typology

ariel · 24th August 2016, 10:25 PM

I think it was Gutowskl who was the first to advance the theory that the so-called " ordynkas" and " czeczugas" traditionally attributed to Crimean tatars were in fact Circassian. There are two tantalizing pieces of info: first, a brief note of a European traveler that Circassians first pierce their opponents and then slash them and the second one is the actual similar saber taken by Gustav Adolph from a Polish Hussar as well as 3 others, similar, (##65-67), 2 from Sweden, one from Dresden ( Gutowski, "Tartar Arms and Armour).All are originally from Poland that had sizeable populations of Crimean Tatars.

I am not so sure that sabers with bayonet tip ( dating back to The White River examples) are the true Jates. Yes, this was asserted by Kirill Rivkin, and I respect him immensely, but to my best knowledge there is no direct reference to these sabers being addressed as true Jate.

As to Misyurkas, again IMHO, they are a pretty old pattern encountered in Crimea AND Circassia. Whether they were introduced to Circassia through Circassian Mamluks, or through the Ottomans I do not know. But the common denominator is their name: Misr i.e. Egypt. They are the simplest of the local helmets, from almost flat through low to high.

We are diverging quite a bit.
The question was whether all Caucasian, Afghani and "Bukharan" guardless sabers can be equally defined as Shashkas or the name should be retained to the patterns clearly deriving from the Caucasian tradition ( directly or through intermediate steps). My opinion is that only the Caucasian ones are the true shashkas, the Afghani ones are influenced by them ( through Russian Cossacks) and are thus conveniently called " pseudoshashkas" and the Bukharan ones have nothing to do with them except for superficial similarities.

estcrh · 24th August 2016, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

My opinion is that only the Caucasian ones are the true shashkas, the Afghani ones are influenced by them ( through Russian Cossacks) and are thus conveniently called " pseudoshashkas" and the Bukharan ones have nothing to do with them except for superficial similarities.

My opinion based on what I have read here is that there are Caucasian /Circassian shashka with the Cossack and Russian ones being included in this group, then Afghan shashka as has been noted here they were influenced by the Caucasian shashka, then there are the non Caucasian / Circassian pseudo shahska type swords, these come as noted from several regions / cultures....pseudo due to the fact that they are not actually shashka at all according to what I have read.

If the Cossack and Russian shashka are not considered to be pseudo then the Afghan shashka should not be either as they all were based on the original shashka while the Bukharan type have simply been misnamed as they have a similar appearance by coincidence.

ariel · 24th August 2016, 11:41 PM

Eric,
I think you are operating with wrong definitions of Cossack and Russian shashkas.

Cossack shashka is a misnomer: they were not CREATED by the Cossacks: they merely BELONGED to them. Their origin was North Caucasus, Circassians and related ethnic groups. Cossacks bought or captured them from the locals. These shashkas are purely Caucasian. Importantly Don, Terek and the rest of Cossach Hosts had no industry at all: at the most they might have had a village smith to shoe a horse or fix a broken axe. All "professionals" were Russian peasants who spent limited time in Cossack settlements and went back home. Engaging in any trade was considered a disgrace for a Cossack and the violators were beaten up and thrown out. Even in the Ukraine , the seat of the most developed Host, Ukrainian Zaporogian one, great majority of weapons were either imported or captured and the rare examples of locally-manufactured weapons were crude imitations of Persian and Turkish examples. See book by Denis Toichkin "The Cossack saber", the most detailed account of virtually all Ukrainian museum collections, lists of professions in Ukrainian towns, data on importation of steel etc, etc. An indispensable book. Elgood might have been proud of it.

The Russian shashka is a different kettle of fish: there were single examples made in St. Petersburg faithfully imitating Caucasian example. Jewelry creation, not a weapon. However, when we talk about "Russian shashka" we are talking about mass-produced regulation designs, borrowing guardless handle, eared pommel and slightly curved blade. This is what they got, with minor variations in the amount of brass, scabbard material etc.
A true "pseudoshashka":-)))

ariel · 25th August 2016, 12:48 AM

And a million $$ question: was there an old local weapon serving as a "prototype" or an "ancestor" for both Afghani and Uzbek shashka-like sabers?

Quite some time ago Mercenary posted on a Russian Forum a series of pictures from a book TARIKH-E JAHANGOSHAY-E NADERI written by a Nader Shah's secretary Mirza Mohammed Mehdi Esterbadi and published in 1757. It refers to the war between Persian and Afghani armies, comprising several battles.

Here are several examples: mostly Afghanis, but also some Persians hold guardless swords. It might be an artist's lack of accuracy, but there are clear depictions of shamshirs WITH guards. Moreover, there is a fragment showing 2 Persian horsemen, with empty scabbars on their sides: one traditional saber "edge down", another a typical shashka " edge up".

These pics open a Pandora box of questions:

-were there Persian but mainly Central Asian guardless sabers that we were not privileged to see in nature?
- if so, were they purely local or brought by other ethnoses? For example, Caucasian ( Circassian, Georgian, Armenian) mercenaries fought alonside Nader Shah troops. Even more, the same mercenaries constituted the bulk of Shah Abbas cavalry during his invasion of Aghanistan.

It is so tempting to suggest that shashka-like weapon came to Afghanistan and Central Asia straight from Caucasus. However, we should temper our enthusiasm until we figure it out better. There is, apparently, only one Caucasian shashka in the Kremlin Armoury allegedly documented to be of XVIII century. Nothing earlier. Thus, even if we believe the documentation, it is dated well after the reign of Nader Shah and a century and a half after Shah Abbas.

In any case, please see for yourself.

ariel · 25th August 2016, 12:52 AM

+1

estcrh · 25th August 2016, 01:33 AM

Ariel, these are great images showing armor and weapons.

ariel · 25th August 2016, 02:44 AM

Here are 2 examples of Afghani sabers, both with elman.
The one with the scabbard is mine.

The integral bolster, the chape and the top of the scabbard are distinctly Afghani. The top of the scabbard also has a slit, similar to what we see on Ottomas palas.

The other one is, of course, M D, Long's example.

Are they what we are talking about as a predecessor of the Afghani "pseudoshashka"? And, perhaps, even the Bukharan saber?

estcrh · 26th August 2016, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Eric,
I think you are operating with wrong definitions of Cossack and Russian shashkas.

Cossack shashka is a misnomer: they were not CREATED by the Cossacks: they merely BELONGED to them. Their origin was North Caucasus, Circassians and related ethnic groups. Cossacks bought or captured them from the locals. These shashkas are purely Caucasian. Importantly Don, Terek and the rest of Cossach Hosts had no industry at all: at the most they might have had a village smith to shoe a horse or fix a broken axe. All "professionals" were Russian peasants who spent limited time in Cossack settlements and went back home. Engaging in any trade was considered a disgrace for a Cossack and the violators were beaten up and thrown out. Even in the Ukraine , the seat of the most developed Host, Ukrainian Zaporogian one, great majority of weapons were either imported or captured and the rare examples of locally-manufactured weapons were crude imitations of Persian and Turkish examples. See book by Denis Toichkin "The Cossack saber", the most detailed account of virtually all Ukrainian museum collections, lists of professions in Ukrainian towns, data on importation of steel etc, etc. An indispensable book. Elgood might have been proud of it.

The Russian shashka is a different kettle of fish: there were single examples made in St. Petersburg faithfully imitating Caucasian example. Jewelry creation, not a weapon. However, when we talk about "Russian shashka" we are talking about mass-produced regulation designs, borrowing guardless handle, eared pommel and slightly curved blade. This is what they got, with minor variations in the amount of brass, scabbard material etc.
A true "pseudoshashka":-)))

Very good information Ariel, unfortunately when you look online, there are Caucasian / Circassian shashka being described as Cossack, Georgian, Russian etc. Most with a few exceptions as you noted have simply been improperly described but just like the so called "Bukharan shashka" the descriptions are already out there so I have grouped these together in one category (for now). As you also noted, the mass produced Russian shashka should probably be in its own category, much like the Afghan shashka. In the English speaking world there are a lot of misconceptions about shashka which are slowly being revealed.

As for the term "pseudo", I use it for shashka like sabres that are not actually shashka based weapons and since it appears that the Russian and Afghan shashka have a common relation to actual shashka I do not see them as being "pseudo" based on my understanding of the word, but not everyone has the same understanding of the word. We will have to agree to disagree

Kiziria · 12th October 2017, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Very good information Ariel, unfortunately when you look online, there are Caucasian / Circassian shashka being described as Cossack, Georgian, Russian etc. Most with a few exceptions as you noted have simply been improperly described

Allow me to point out that though there are plenty of incorrectly attributed Circassian shashkas online, there are distinct type of Georgian shashka (noteworthy it was not called shashka in Georgian ) and other Georgian types of swords, which shared fundamental features of guardless sabers.

Circassian shashka in my opinion is brilliant weapon, a crowning specimen of special type of swords that emerged and underwent development in Caucasus region. There is a definite genealogical line of these kind of weapons. Shahska does not stand totally apart.

ariel · 13th October 2017, 05:33 AM

Vakhtang,
Glad to finally see you here.
This forum definitely needs people of your expertise.

24th August 2016, 10:25 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think it was Gutowskl who was the first to advance the theory that the so-called " ordynkas" and " czeczugas" traditionally attributed to Crimean tatars were in fact Circassian. There are two tantalizing pieces of info: first, a brief note of a European traveler that Circassians first pierce their opponents and then slash them and the second one is the actual similar saber taken by Gustav Adolph from a Polish Hussar as well as 3 others, similar, (##65-67), 2 from Sweden, one from Dresden ( Gutowski, "Tartar Arms and Armour).All are originally from Poland that had sizeable populations of Crimean Tatars. I am not so sure that sabers with bayonet tip ( dating back to The White River examples) are the true Jates. Yes, this was asserted by Kirill Rivkin, and I respect him immensely, but to my best knowledge there is no direct reference to these sabers being addressed as true Jate. As to Misyurkas, again IMHO, they are a pretty old pattern encountered in Crimea AND Circassia. Whether they were introduced to Circassia through Circassian Mamluks, or through the Ottomans I do not know. But the common denominator is their name: Misr i.e. Egypt. They are the simplest of the local helmets, from almost flat through low to high. We are diverging quite a bit. The question was whether all Caucasian, Afghani and "Bukharan" guardless sabers can be equally defined as Shashkas or the name should be retained to the patterns clearly deriving from the Caucasian tradition ( directly or through intermediate steps). My opinion is that only the Caucasian ones are the true shashkas, the Afghani ones are influenced by them ( through Russian Cossacks) and are thus conveniently called " pseudoshashkas" and the Bukharan ones have nothing to do with them except for superficial similarities. Last edited by ariel; 25th August 2016 at 01:06 AM.

24th August 2016, 11:41 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Eric, I think you are operating with wrong definitions of Cossack and Russian shashkas. Cossack shashka is a misnomer: they were not CREATED by the Cossacks: they merely BELONGED to them. Their origin was North Caucasus, Circassians and related ethnic groups. Cossacks bought or captured them from the locals. These shashkas are purely Caucasian. Importantly Don, Terek and the rest of Cossach Hosts had no industry at all: at the most they might have had a village smith to shoe a horse or fix a broken axe. All "professionals" were Russian peasants who spent limited time in Cossack settlements and went back home. Engaging in any trade was considered a disgrace for a Cossack and the violators were beaten up and thrown out. Even in the Ukraine , the seat of the most developed Host, Ukrainian Zaporogian one, great majority of weapons were either imported or captured and the rare examples of locally-manufactured weapons were crude imitations of Persian and Turkish examples. See book by Denis Toichkin "The Cossack saber", the most detailed account of virtually all Ukrainian museum collections, lists of professions in Ukrainian towns, data on importation of steel etc, etc. An indispensable book. Elgood might have been proud of it. The Russian shashka is a different kettle of fish: there were single examples made in St. Petersburg faithfully imitating Caucasian example. Jewelry creation, not a weapon. However, when we talk about "Russian shashka" we are talking about mass-produced regulation designs, borrowing guardless handle, eared pommel and slightly curved blade. This is what they got, with minor variations in the amount of brass, scabbard material etc. A true "pseudoshashka":-))) Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 24th August 2016 at 11:59 PM.

25th August 2016, 12:48 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And a million $$ question: was there an old local weapon serving as a "prototype" or an "ancestor" for both Afghani and Uzbek shashka-like sabers? Quite some time ago Mercenary posted on a Russian Forum a series of pictures from a book TARIKH-E JAHANGOSHAY-E NADERI written by a Nader Shah's secretary Mirza Mohammed Mehdi Esterbadi and published in 1757. It refers to the war between Persian and Afghani armies, comprising several battles. Here are several examples: mostly Afghanis, but also some Persians hold guardless swords. It might be an artist's lack of accuracy, but there are clear depictions of shamshirs WITH guards. Moreover, there is a fragment showing 2 Persian horsemen, with empty scabbars on their sides: one traditional saber "edge down", another a typical shashka " edge up". These pics open a Pandora box of questions: -were there Persian but mainly Central Asian guardless sabers that we were not privileged to see in nature? - if so, were they purely local or brought by other ethnoses? For example, Caucasian ( Circassian, Georgian, Armenian) mercenaries fought alonside Nader Shah troops. Even more, the same mercenaries constituted the bulk of Shah Abbas cavalry during his invasion of Aghanistan. It is so tempting to suggest that shashka-like weapon came to Afghanistan and Central Asia straight from Caucasus. However, we should temper our enthusiasm until we figure it out better. There is, apparently, only one Caucasian shashka in the Kremlin Armoury allegedly documented to be of XVIII century. Nothing earlier. Thus, even if we believe the documentation, it is dated well after the reign of Nader Shah and a century and a half after Shah Abbas. In any case, please see for yourself. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 25th August 2016 at 02:03 AM.

25th August 2016, 12:52 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	+1 Attached Images

25th August 2016, 02:44 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here are 2 examples of Afghani sabers, both with elman. The one with the scabbard is mine. The integral bolster, the chape and the top of the scabbard are distinctly Afghani. The top of the scabbard also has a slit, similar to what we see on Ottomas palas. The other one is, of course, M D, Long's example. Are they what we are talking about as a predecessor of the Afghani "pseudoshashka"? And, perhaps, even the Bukharan saber? Attached Images

25th August 2016, 01:33 AM	#6
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Ariel, these are great images showing armor and weapons. Attached Images

13th October 2017, 05:33 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Vakhtang, Glad to finally see you here. This forum definitely needs people of your expertise.