Classifying shashka--a serious discussion of typology

estcrh · 24th August 2016, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kamachate

Interestingly, Circassian noble classes (wearing chainmail shirts, helmets and carrying bow-quiver), including the royal guards of the Czar's convoy, are rarely depicted with "shashkas". Especially the highest ranks seem to prefer "ordinka" type sabres, instead of a regular and modest shashka. Shashkas seem to be preferred mostly by the free highlanders, and only after the Russian war, we see high ranks carrying very elaborately adorned shashkas. Maybe this can be the difference between a big blade (shashka) and a regular sabre (chate) to a Circassian.

Plenty of shashka here, supposedly showing Circassians with an Ottoman official. It would be interesting to go through some of the old photos and see exactly what type of sword was preferred.

Quote:

Group portrait of eight Circassian men in uniform, with another man, possibly an Ottoman official by Abdullah Frères, 1880.

ariel · 24th August 2016, 07:18 PM

These are muhajirs, the exiled Circassians on Sultan's service. Couple of them even wear Ottoman medals.

ariel · 24th August 2016, 07:29 PM

Caucasians serving in the Tsar's convoy wore garb likely approved by the Tsar himself and not contemporaneous with the real local one.
Some of the "misyurkas" ( flat, plate-like helmets with mail on the edges) were even made for them in Russia proper.
They had to look exotic, slightly wild and and archaic.

kamachate · 24th August 2016, 09:15 PM

Thank you both Estcrh and Ariel,
Yes, the photo is just what I meant, after the Russian-Caucasian war, and despite their position in the Ottoman court, one can not see any exaggerated fittings on the shashkas or the kindjals... modest weapons carried for the aim

Since it is an other subject, and remembering that some other older threads had already discussed about it, here I add a photo with a "chate" (чатэ) = saber in Circassian (Tatar sabre or ordynka???) and other "regular"

Circassian armory. To note again, the real Circassian word for the saber or sword is "chate", not "shashka" or "seshkho"

Ariel, maybe we can discuss about the plain, even flat misourkas later, for I think they were the original ones in the Caucasus, and the high and pointed ones were introduced sometime later with the impact of the European-Russian aristocracy.
Thanks again.

ariel · 24th August 2016, 10:25 PM

I think it was Gutowskl who was the first to advance the theory that the so-called " ordynkas" and " czeczugas" traditionally attributed to Crimean tatars were in fact Circassian. There are two tantalizing pieces of info: first, a brief note of a European traveler that Circassians first pierce their opponents and then slash them and the second one is the actual similar saber taken by Gustav Adolph from a Polish Hussar as well as 3 others, similar, (##65-67), 2 from Sweden, one from Dresden ( Gutowski, "Tartar Arms and Armour).All are originally from Poland that had sizeable populations of Crimean Tatars.

I am not so sure that sabers with bayonet tip ( dating back to The White River examples) are the true Jates. Yes, this was asserted by Kirill Rivkin, and I respect him immensely, but to my best knowledge there is no direct reference to these sabers being addressed as true Jate.

As to Misyurkas, again IMHO, they are a pretty old pattern encountered in Crimea AND Circassia. Whether they were introduced to Circassia through Circassian Mamluks, or through the Ottomans I do not know. But the common denominator is their name: Misr i.e. Egypt. They are the simplest of the local helmets, from almost flat through low to high.

We are diverging quite a bit.
The question was whether all Caucasian, Afghani and "Bukharan" guardless sabers can be equally defined as Shashkas or the name should be retained to the patterns clearly deriving from the Caucasian tradition ( directly or through intermediate steps). My opinion is that only the Caucasian ones are the true shashkas, the Afghani ones are influenced by them ( through Russian Cossacks) and are thus conveniently called " pseudoshashkas" and the Bukharan ones have nothing to do with them except for superficial similarities.

estcrh · 24th August 2016, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

My opinion is that only the Caucasian ones are the true shashkas, the Afghani ones are influenced by them ( through Russian Cossacks) and are thus conveniently called " pseudoshashkas" and the Bukharan ones have nothing to do with them except for superficial similarities.

My opinion based on what I have read here is that there are Caucasian /Circassian shashka with the Cossack and Russian ones being included in this group, then Afghan shashka as has been noted here they were influenced by the Caucasian shashka, then there are the non Caucasian / Circassian pseudo shahska type swords, these come as noted from several regions / cultures....pseudo due to the fact that they are not actually shashka at all according to what I have read.

If the Cossack and Russian shashka are not considered to be pseudo then the Afghan shashka should not be either as they all were based on the original shashka while the Bukharan type have simply been misnamed as they have a similar appearance by coincidence.

ariel · 24th August 2016, 11:41 PM

Eric,
I think you are operating with wrong definitions of Cossack and Russian shashkas.

Cossack shashka is a misnomer: they were not CREATED by the Cossacks: they merely BELONGED to them. Their origin was North Caucasus, Circassians and related ethnic groups. Cossacks bought or captured them from the locals. These shashkas are purely Caucasian. Importantly Don, Terek and the rest of Cossach Hosts had no industry at all: at the most they might have had a village smith to shoe a horse or fix a broken axe. All "professionals" were Russian peasants who spent limited time in Cossack settlements and went back home. Engaging in any trade was considered a disgrace for a Cossack and the violators were beaten up and thrown out. Even in the Ukraine , the seat of the most developed Host, Ukrainian Zaporogian one, great majority of weapons were either imported or captured and the rare examples of locally-manufactured weapons were crude imitations of Persian and Turkish examples. See book by Denis Toichkin "The Cossack saber", the most detailed account of virtually all Ukrainian museum collections, lists of professions in Ukrainian towns, data on importation of steel etc, etc. An indispensable book. Elgood might have been proud of it.

The Russian shashka is a different kettle of fish: there were single examples made in St. Petersburg faithfully imitating Caucasian example. Jewelry creation, not a weapon. However, when we talk about "Russian shashka" we are talking about mass-produced regulation designs, borrowing guardless handle, eared pommel and slightly curved blade. This is what they got, with minor variations in the amount of brass, scabbard material etc.
A true "pseudoshashka":-)))

24th August 2016, 09:15 PM	#4
kamachate Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26	Thank you both Estcrh and Ariel, Yes, the photo is just what I meant, after the Russian-Caucasian war, and despite their position in the Ottoman court, one can not see any exaggerated fittings on the shashkas or the kindjals... modest weapons carried for the aim Since it is an other subject, and remembering that some other older threads had already discussed about it, here I add a photo with a "chate" (чатэ) = saber in Circassian (Tatar sabre or ordynka???) and other "regular" Circassian armory. To note again, the real Circassian word for the saber or sword is "chate", not "shashka" or "seshkho" Ariel, maybe we can discuss about the plain, even flat misourkas later, for I think they were the original ones in the Caucasus, and the high and pointed ones were introduced sometime later with the impact of the European-Russian aristocracy. Thanks again. Attached Images

24th August 2016, 10:25 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think it was Gutowskl who was the first to advance the theory that the so-called " ordynkas" and " czeczugas" traditionally attributed to Crimean tatars were in fact Circassian. There are two tantalizing pieces of info: first, a brief note of a European traveler that Circassians first pierce their opponents and then slash them and the second one is the actual similar saber taken by Gustav Adolph from a Polish Hussar as well as 3 others, similar, (##65-67), 2 from Sweden, one from Dresden ( Gutowski, "Tartar Arms and Armour).All are originally from Poland that had sizeable populations of Crimean Tatars. I am not so sure that sabers with bayonet tip ( dating back to The White River examples) are the true Jates. Yes, this was asserted by Kirill Rivkin, and I respect him immensely, but to my best knowledge there is no direct reference to these sabers being addressed as true Jate. As to Misyurkas, again IMHO, they are a pretty old pattern encountered in Crimea AND Circassia. Whether they were introduced to Circassia through Circassian Mamluks, or through the Ottomans I do not know. But the common denominator is their name: Misr i.e. Egypt. They are the simplest of the local helmets, from almost flat through low to high. We are diverging quite a bit. The question was whether all Caucasian, Afghani and "Bukharan" guardless sabers can be equally defined as Shashkas or the name should be retained to the patterns clearly deriving from the Caucasian tradition ( directly or through intermediate steps). My opinion is that only the Caucasian ones are the true shashkas, the Afghani ones are influenced by them ( through Russian Cossacks) and are thus conveniently called " pseudoshashkas" and the Bukharan ones have nothing to do with them except for superficial similarities. Last edited by ariel; 25th August 2016 at 01:06 AM.

24th August 2016, 11:41 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Eric, I think you are operating with wrong definitions of Cossack and Russian shashkas. Cossack shashka is a misnomer: they were not CREATED by the Cossacks: they merely BELONGED to them. Their origin was North Caucasus, Circassians and related ethnic groups. Cossacks bought or captured them from the locals. These shashkas are purely Caucasian. Importantly Don, Terek and the rest of Cossach Hosts had no industry at all: at the most they might have had a village smith to shoe a horse or fix a broken axe. All "professionals" were Russian peasants who spent limited time in Cossack settlements and went back home. Engaging in any trade was considered a disgrace for a Cossack and the violators were beaten up and thrown out. Even in the Ukraine , the seat of the most developed Host, Ukrainian Zaporogian one, great majority of weapons were either imported or captured and the rare examples of locally-manufactured weapons were crude imitations of Persian and Turkish examples. See book by Denis Toichkin "The Cossack saber", the most detailed account of virtually all Ukrainian museum collections, lists of professions in Ukrainian towns, data on importation of steel etc, etc. An indispensable book. Elgood might have been proud of it. The Russian shashka is a different kettle of fish: there were single examples made in St. Petersburg faithfully imitating Caucasian example. Jewelry creation, not a weapon. However, when we talk about "Russian shashka" we are talking about mass-produced regulation designs, borrowing guardless handle, eared pommel and slightly curved blade. This is what they got, with minor variations in the amount of brass, scabbard material etc. A true "pseudoshashka":-))) Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 24th August 2016 at 11:59 PM.

24th August 2016, 07:18 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	These are muhajirs, the exiled Circassians on Sultan's service. Couple of them even wear Ottoman medals.

24th August 2016, 07:29 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Caucasians serving in the Tsar's convoy wore garb likely approved by the Tsar himself and not contemporaneous with the real local one. Some of the "misyurkas" ( flat, plate-like helmets with mail on the edges) were even made for them in Russia proper. They had to look exotic, slightly wild and and archaic.