Classifying shashka--a serious discussion of typology

ariel · 20th August 2016, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Marius:

I understand and that is a perfectly legitimate and logical position. It also fits within the rubric of discussing shashkas and shashka variants.

Ian.

Yes, it is, if we ignore the inconvenient fact that Bukharan saber has nothing to do with shashka from the developmental point of view.

If we go that way, Beduin sabres and Sardinian leppas ( see above) are also shashkas :-)))

mariusgmioc · 20th August 2016, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Yes, it is, if we ignore the inconvenient fact that Bukharan saber has nothing to do with shashka from the developmental point of view.

If we go that way, Beduin sabres and Sardinian leppas ( see above) are also shashkas :-)))

What kind of Bukharan sabers are you referring to, because I know at least two types that have significantly different characteristics?! You mean the Bukharan shamshirs?!

Does the "Beduin sabres" display the majority of characteristics that define a Shashka?!
Would the term "Beduin Shashka" be clearer and less ambiguous than "Beduin sabres?"
If one thinks so, then one is free to call them "Beduin Shashkas" but run the risk of being missunderstood.

Does the "Sardinian Leppas" display the majority of characteristics that define a Shashka?!
Would the term "Sardinian Shashkas" be clearer and less ambiguous than "Sardinian Leppas?"
Like I said before, if one thinks so, then one is free to call them "Sardinian Shashkas" but run the risk of being missunderstood.

ariel · 20th August 2016, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

... one is free to call them "Beduin Shashkas" but run the risk of being missunderstood.

...one is free to call them "Sardinian Shashkas" but run the risk of being missunderstood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfwN0X8YnWo

:-)))

mariusgmioc · 20th August 2016, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfwN0X8YnWo

:-)))

Thanks! Brought back memories! I didn't even know they had a video.

ariel · 20th August 2016, 07:02 PM

Glad you liked it. Enjoy!

kamachate · 24th August 2016, 09:25 AM

Hi all. Thanks for this useful thread. Here is a companion from me:

Yes, the word seshkho (сэшхо) is the Circassian word for "big blade", even in modern Circassian. "Se" practically means the "edge", and there are a series of words derived from it, such as: se+shkho (сэшхо) = big blade = checker, or, se+zii (сэжъый, шэжъый) = small blade = knife (these words are still in daily use).

However, and I think this is important, seshkho is not the only word for "sword" or "shashka" in Circassian. Seshkho, or "shashka" is the word for this type of blade, and the word for "saber" is "chate" (чатэ) in Circassian. "Chate" is again a single handed, single edged, curved or strait sword, but with a longer blade and bayonet-type tip, with small crossguards, which is to say, a Khevsurian sword or an "ordynka" or "Tatar style saber"

But, the word "chate" "should" had been used for the double-edged and strait swords before the development of the sabers, for there is no other word for sword, or saber, or checker in Circassian (as far as I know

). An other proof for this: Big kindjals (strait or curved, but longer than 60 cm) are called khamachate, literally kindjal-sword, which have nothing to do with the ordynka type

Older Circassian sagas (before 17th century - and especially the Nart sagas) never mention "shashkas", but frequently talk about the heroes or heroines, and their "chate"s and their wonderful features. This is quite reasonable if we all agree that "shashka" is a later invention, but is also a proof that it does not mean "sword" or "saber", a shashka (or seshkho) for a Circassian is just what it is, "a big blade".

About the "origin", I am quite sure that the word "shaska" derives from the Circassian word, but I can not be that sure about the "ethnic"

origin of this weapon. As we know, the first and strong contacts between the Caucasian tribes and Russians began with the Circassians, and most features of the Caucasian culture are known to be "Circassian" to the Russians (today Georgian

). A very good example is the traditional and general Caucasian coat with cartridges, which is called "Cherkesska" in Russian. The Russians must have adapted the shashka from the Circassians with its original but deformed name, but the "invention" of this blade well may be a different story

Thanks again for the thread.

ariel · 24th August 2016, 10:24 AM

True enough.
Prior to their conquest of the Caucasus there were multiple Cossack settlements adjacent to the Circassian borders. This was the earliest channel of penetration of Caucasian culture into the Russian areal. During and after the Russian-Caucasian wars in the 19 century there was a massive presence of the Russian military and bureaucracy there and the cultural dam was completely broken. Russian officers started to carry Caucasian weapons and dress like the natives.

It was an unusual occurrence: the vanquished imposed their culture upon the conquerors. Tsars started to have their official portraits painted while dressed in the Circassian garb and carrying kindjals and shashkas and both of these weapons became regulation weapons of the Russian military. Of course, mass production did not allow the artistic elements to be reproduced, but the idea remained , in case of shashka incorporating saber blade with minor curvature, guardless design and eared pommel. The final result was, IMHO, pretty ugly but both the construction and the name became very Russian.

The very presence of these elements on the Afghani pseudoshashkas betrays powerful Russian military influence upon the emerging army building in that country.

The "Uzbeki" example was just a parallel development. Conquered Khanates were not allowed to have organized military and there was no opportunity or need to adapt Russian weapons for mass production. They remained as occasional examples preserving their cultural military heritage owing nothing to the Russian influence.

20th August 2016, 07:02 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Glad you liked it. Enjoy!

24th August 2016, 09:25 AM	#6
kamachate Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26	Hi all. Thanks for this useful thread. Here is a companion from me: Yes, the word seshkho (сэшхо) is the Circassian word for "big blade", even in modern Circassian. "Se" practically means the "edge", and there are a series of words derived from it, such as: se+shkho (сэшхо) = big blade = checker, or, se+zii (сэжъый, шэжъый) = small blade = knife (these words are still in daily use). However, and I think this is important, seshkho is not the only word for "sword" or "shashka" in Circassian. Seshkho, or "shashka" is the word for this type of blade, and the word for "saber" is "chate" (чатэ) in Circassian. "Chate" is again a single handed, single edged, curved or strait sword, but with a longer blade and bayonet-type tip, with small crossguards, which is to say, a Khevsurian sword or an "ordynka" or "Tatar style saber" But, the word "chate" "should" had been used for the double-edged and strait swords before the development of the sabers, for there is no other word for sword, or saber, or checker in Circassian (as far as I know ). An other proof for this: Big kindjals (strait or curved, but longer than 60 cm) are called khamachate, literally kindjal-sword, which have nothing to do with the ordynka type Older Circassian sagas (before 17th century - and especially the Nart sagas) never mention "shashkas", but frequently talk about the heroes or heroines, and their "chate"s and their wonderful features. This is quite reasonable if we all agree that "shashka" is a later invention, but is also a proof that it does not mean "sword" or "saber", a shashka (or seshkho) for a Circassian is just what it is, "a big blade". About the "origin", I am quite sure that the word "shaska" derives from the Circassian word, but I can not be that sure about the "ethnic" origin of this weapon. As we know, the first and strong contacts between the Caucasian tribes and Russians began with the Circassians, and most features of the Caucasian culture are known to be "Circassian" to the Russians (today Georgian ). A very good example is the traditional and general Caucasian coat with cartridges, which is called "Cherkesska" in Russian. The Russians must have adapted the shashka from the Circassians with its original but deformed name, but the "invention" of this blade well may be a different story Thanks again for the thread.

24th August 2016, 10:24 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	True enough. Prior to their conquest of the Caucasus there were multiple Cossack settlements adjacent to the Circassian borders. This was the earliest channel of penetration of Caucasian culture into the Russian areal. During and after the Russian-Caucasian wars in the 19 century there was a massive presence of the Russian military and bureaucracy there and the cultural dam was completely broken. Russian officers started to carry Caucasian weapons and dress like the natives. It was an unusual occurrence: the vanquished imposed their culture upon the conquerors. Tsars started to have their official portraits painted while dressed in the Circassian garb and carrying kindjals and shashkas and both of these weapons became regulation weapons of the Russian military. Of course, mass production did not allow the artistic elements to be reproduced, but the idea remained , in case of shashka incorporating saber blade with minor curvature, guardless design and eared pommel. The final result was, IMHO, pretty ugly but both the construction and the name became very Russian. The very presence of these elements on the Afghani pseudoshashkas betrays powerful Russian military influence upon the emerging army building in that country. The "Uzbeki" example was just a parallel development. Conquered Khanates were not allowed to have organized military and there was no opportunity or need to adapt Russian weapons for mass production. They remained as occasional examples preserving their cultural military heritage owing nothing to the Russian influence.