SOLO KRATON KERIS AUCTIONED / GIFT FROM JAVANESE ROYALS TO DUTCH BANKER

A. G. Maisey · 17th August 2016, 11:19 PM

Willem, the gonjo on this keris is a barely acceptable replacement, the keris itself is very ordinary.

If the story is true, it may be able to be considered to be a royal gift.

But this raises the question of royalty in Central Jawa.

Javanese rulers had more than one official wife, and many unofficial wives (selir). My housekeeper of many years claimed descent from one such unofficial wife of Pakubuwono X.

Pakubuwono XII (1925 -- 2004) had six wives, and from these six wives he had 15 sons and 20 daughters. He also had an unknown number of selir and an unknown number of children from these selir.

Over the years I have known many people who can claim royal descent --- taxi drivers, shop assistants, factory workers, office workers, accountants, a physician.

There is nothing at all special about being able to claim royal descent, unless one is accepted as an active part of the hierarchy of the Keraton. The minor children pretty much don't bother, and simply get on with their lives.

This keris may or may not be a gift from one such person. It may or may not be a gift from the Susuhunan of Surakarta himself, but whoever gifted it, it remains a very, very ordinary keris.

EDIT

Willem, I've just read through this thread from the beginning.

I believe you already have a very clear answer on the "royalty" thing, given on more than one occasion, and by more than one person.

asomotif · 18th August 2016, 12:36 PM

Dear Alan,

Thank you for the interesting information about royalty in central Jawa.

Indeed reading back the entire thread most questions are answered.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate every reaction, but basically David and your good self are the main participants.

I am looking to keris from a very western point of view and the esoteric aspect is something I respect, but it does not play any role for me.

So if I check the Unique Selling Points of this particular keris as stated in the listing I have the following resume :

- KRATON keris :
not likely
- KRATON gift :
could be, as some kraton gifts can be of low quality and many can claim royalty
- GOOD FORGING proven by balance of the keris :
No relation between balance and good forging. it is more about center of gravity. (PS, I tried to balance my Zwilling kitchenknife. it was very difficult, altough it really does the job in the kitchen)
- GOOD FIT of the keris in Scabbard :
No, not really a good fit. Might be due to the replaced gonjo.
- ROYAL FAMILY CREST on pendok :
A not recognisable crest and a very common decoration.
- RED CLOTH insertion in the pendok claiming kraton use :
Not true, kraton use would mean red paint. cloth can be inserted at any time.
- SELUT :
1970's selut, a bit strange on a keris claimed to be mid 19th cent.
- UNIQUE MENDAK with the name of the banker :
No firm answer on this one, but personally I think this was part of some office utensil. maybe a stamp combined with upper and lower part of a mendak.

Somebody bought a poor keris with a rich story.

Best regards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey · 19th August 2016, 01:14 PM

Willem, I have interpolated my response:-

- KRATON keris :
not likely

AGREED

- KRATON gift :
could be, as some kraton gifts can be of low quality and many can claim royalty

AGREED

- GOOD FORGING proven by balance of the keris :
No relation between balance and good forging. it is more about center of gravity. (PS, I tried to balance my Zwilling kitchenknife. it was very difficult, altough it really does the job in the kitchen)

YES, THE KERIS BALANCING THING IS A PARTY TRICK, ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF OF ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE QUALITY OF THE KERIS

- GOOD FIT of the keris in Scabbard :
No, not really a good fit. Might be due to the replaced gonjo.

FROM MY PERSPECTIVE THE FIT OF AN OLD KERIS TO AN OLD SCABBARD IS NOT REALLY ALL THAT IMPORTANT. YES, I KNOW I'M VOICING A DIFFERENT OPINION TO THAT OF MANY VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE COLLECTORS LIVING OUTSIDE INDONESIA. PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGIES.
I'M NOT GOING USE THE SPACE NEEDED TO SUPPORT WHAT I HAVE JUST WRITTEN, BUT THE PRIMARY ARGUMENT THAT ITS ALL ABOUT THE MAN, NOT THE CLOTHES HE'S WEARING.

- ROYAL FAMILY CREST on pendok :
A not recognisable crest and a very common decoration.

YES

- RED CLOTH insertion in the pendok claiming kraton use :
Not true, kraton use would mean red paint. cloth can be inserted at any time.

TRUE, BUT RED IN THIS CONTEXT COULD BE READ AS AN INDICATOR OF RANK. I AM NOT SAYING IT IS, I AM SAYING IT IS POSSIBLE

- SELUT :
1970's selut, a bit strange on a keris claimed to be mid 19th cent.

YES

- UNIQUE MENDAK with the name of the banker :
No firm answer on this one, but personally I think this was part of some office utensil. maybe a stamp combined with upper and lower part of a mendak.

POSSIBLY

Somebody bought a poor keris with a rich story.

YEAH --- WELL YOU KNOW WHAT WE SAY ABOUT THAT. NO NEED TO REPEAT IT.

asomotif · 20th August 2016, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

- GOOD FORGING proven by balance of the keris :
No relation between balance and good forging. it is more about center of gravity. (PS, I tried to balance my Zwilling kitchenknife. it was very difficult, altough it really does the job in the kitchen)

Sorry, can not resist to post this one.

David · 21st August 2016, 02:22 AM

Well, it does look like a good knife...

Rick · 21st August 2016, 03:34 AM

Without the other.

It's the fork that is the unsung hero.

asomotif · 21st August 2016, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Without the other.

It's the fork that is the unsung hero.

Yep, same as the scabbard in the sellers pictures

Without the fork I did not manage, probably due to bad forging

mariusgmioc · 23rd August 2016, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Sorry, can not resist to post this one.

BRILLIANT!

rasjid · 31st August 2016, 05:23 AM

Just to add a little info from my experience about the Selut. I saw and bought the exact same selut during the 2008 in Jakarta market. Sold either in chrome silver or chrome gold.
Someone told me that he owns the same version in full gold (according to him) but I never hold and see with my own eyes, so I don't know. I just agreed with the owner statement and maybe its before 2000? I don't know.

regards,
rasjid

Sajen · 31st August 2016, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasjid

Just to add a little info from my experience about the Selut.

Have also such a selut, bought 2001 in Indonesia.

A. G. Maisey · 7th September 2016, 02:40 AM

Post #17 is a very good and clear picture of the lambang Karaton Surakarta, however, when this gets put on to a pendok its looks a little bit different.

Here is a pic of the Lambang Karaton Surakarta as we would expect to see it on a pendok.

21st August 2016, 03:34 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Can't Have One Without the other. It's the fork that is the unsung hero.

7th September 2016, 02:40 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Post #17 is a very good and clear picture of the lambang Karaton Surakarta, however, when this gets put on to a pendok its looks a little bit different. Here is a pic of the Lambang Karaton Surakarta as we would expect to see it on a pendok. Attached Images

17th August 2016, 11:19 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Willem, the gonjo on this keris is a barely acceptable replacement, the keris itself is very ordinary. If the story is true, it may be able to be considered to be a royal gift. But this raises the question of royalty in Central Jawa. Javanese rulers had more than one official wife, and many unofficial wives (selir). My housekeeper of many years claimed descent from one such unofficial wife of Pakubuwono X. Pakubuwono XII (1925 -- 2004) had six wives, and from these six wives he had 15 sons and 20 daughters. He also had an unknown number of selir and an unknown number of children from these selir. Over the years I have known many people who can claim royal descent --- taxi drivers, shop assistants, factory workers, office workers, accountants, a physician. There is nothing at all special about being able to claim royal descent, unless one is accepted as an active part of the hierarchy of the Keraton. The minor children pretty much don't bother, and simply get on with their lives. This keris may or may not be a gift from one such person. It may or may not be a gift from the Susuhunan of Surakarta himself, but whoever gifted it, it remains a very, very ordinary keris. EDIT Willem, I've just read through this thread from the beginning. I believe you already have a very clear answer on the "royalty" thing, given on more than one occasion, and by more than one person. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 18th August 2016 at 12:04 AM.

18th August 2016, 12:36 PM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	Dear Alan, Thank you for the interesting information about royalty in central Jawa. Indeed reading back the entire thread most questions are answered. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate every reaction, but basically David and your good self are the main participants. I am looking to keris from a very western point of view and the esoteric aspect is something I respect, but it does not play any role for me. So if I check the Unique Selling Points of this particular keris as stated in the listing I have the following resume : - KRATON keris : not likely - KRATON gift : could be, as some kraton gifts can be of low quality and many can claim royalty - GOOD FORGING proven by balance of the keris : No relation between balance and good forging. it is more about center of gravity. (PS, I tried to balance my Zwilling kitchenknife. it was very difficult, altough it really does the job in the kitchen) - GOOD FIT of the keris in Scabbard : No, not really a good fit. Might be due to the replaced gonjo. - ROYAL FAMILY CREST on pendok : A not recognisable crest and a very common decoration. - RED CLOTH insertion in the pendok claiming kraton use : Not true, kraton use would mean red paint. cloth can be inserted at any time. - SELUT : 1970's selut, a bit strange on a keris claimed to be mid 19th cent. - UNIQUE MENDAK with the name of the banker : No firm answer on this one, but personally I think this was part of some office utensil. maybe a stamp combined with upper and lower part of a mendak. Somebody bought a poor keris with a rich story. Best regards, Willem

19th August 2016, 01:14 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Willem, I have interpolated my response:- - KRATON keris : not likely AGREED - KRATON gift : could be, as some kraton gifts can be of low quality and many can claim royalty AGREED - GOOD FORGING proven by balance of the keris : No relation between balance and good forging. it is more about center of gravity. (PS, I tried to balance my Zwilling kitchenknife. it was very difficult, altough it really does the job in the kitchen) YES, THE KERIS BALANCING THING IS A PARTY TRICK, ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF OF ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE QUALITY OF THE KERIS - GOOD FIT of the keris in Scabbard : No, not really a good fit. Might be due to the replaced gonjo. FROM MY PERSPECTIVE THE FIT OF AN OLD KERIS TO AN OLD SCABBARD IS NOT REALLY ALL THAT IMPORTANT. YES, I KNOW I'M VOICING A DIFFERENT OPINION TO THAT OF MANY VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE COLLECTORS LIVING OUTSIDE INDONESIA. PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGIES. I'M NOT GOING USE THE SPACE NEEDED TO SUPPORT WHAT I HAVE JUST WRITTEN, BUT THE PRIMARY ARGUMENT THAT ITS ALL ABOUT THE MAN, NOT THE CLOTHES HE'S WEARING. - ROYAL FAMILY CREST on pendok : A not recognisable crest and a very common decoration. YES - RED CLOTH insertion in the pendok claiming kraton use : Not true, kraton use would mean red paint. cloth can be inserted at any time. TRUE, BUT RED IN THIS CONTEXT COULD BE READ AS AN INDICATOR OF RANK. I AM NOT SAYING IT IS, I AM SAYING IT IS POSSIBLE - SELUT : 1970's selut, a bit strange on a keris claimed to be mid 19th cent. YES - UNIQUE MENDAK with the name of the banker : No firm answer on this one, but personally I think this was part of some office utensil. maybe a stamp combined with upper and lower part of a mendak. POSSIBLY Somebody bought a poor keris with a rich story. YEAH --- WELL YOU KNOW WHAT WE SAY ABOUT THAT. NO NEED TO REPEAT IT.

21st August 2016, 02:22 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well, it does look like a good knife...

31st August 2016, 05:23 AM	#9
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Just to add a little info from my experience about the Selut. I saw and bought the exact same selut during the 2008 in Jakarta market. Sold either in chrome silver or chrome gold. Someone told me that he owns the same version in full gold (according to him) but I never hold and see with my own eyes, so I don't know. I just agreed with the owner statement and maybe its before 2000? I don't know. regards, rasjid