Classifying shashka--a serious discussion of typology

Andreas · 15th August 2016, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Andreas,
Obviously, there were no shashkas in Europe; such blades were used for mass manufacture of garden variety sabers, with handguards and all.

But there was a whole industry in Italy, Germany and Styria producing blades for export to the Orient. And the final product was determined by the end user: the same blade could have become shashka in Caucasus, tulwar in India, nimcha in Morocco etc. They were hugely popular everywhere and the natives quickly caught the drift and started making imitations locally and even putting European marks on them.

Sorry Ariel, I'm not familiar with the expression garden variety sabers

My point was, if such 15th - 18th century blades were exported to the Caucasus, what were they exported for if not for shashkas? It seems reasonable to assume that the type existed back then, and I'm saying this because I get the impression from this thread ( I might be wrong) that the shashka is a later development, end 18th-early 19th.
Andreas

estcrh · 15th August 2016, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

if such 15th - 18th century blades were exported to the Caucasus, what were they exported for if not for shashkas?

When were they exported?

ariel · 15th August 2016, 05:03 PM

I hate to disagree with Buttin, but my gut is telling me that his dating was overly optimistic: I think that 17 or more likely 18 century at the latest would be more realistic. And again, finding even 16 century blade on a shashka does not mean that the entire "saber" was made as such in the 16 century.

Genoese colonies in Crimea and Abkhazia existed since 12-13 centuries. Documented import of blades was recorded in the 17-18 centuries.

What were the 17 century blades exported to Circassia used for? I do not know. And nobody does. Everybody would love to say " for shashkas", but there is not a single example of a shashka reliably or even tentatively attributed by the handle to anything earlier than the very end of 18 century. Caucasus was in the throes of uninterrupted wars for centuries; weapons were broken, lost, parts used and reused, combined and recombined.... One cannot find neither heads nor tails.

Ian · 15th August 2016, 05:35 PM

Andreas, Please take time to translate the Bouttin entry. The translation here is terrible. I have not spoken or written French for 50+ years but I do know that the last sentence should read, "It is one of our collection's best blades." No doubt your French is better than mine, so please favor us with a more meaningful translation.

On the issue of using former European blades in Caucasian shashkas, there are some gaps in logic when assuming that these were converted to shashkas in the 17th-18th C.

Basically, we don't know when these shashkas were made. The blades could have been repurposed, such that a guarded hilt was replaced by the guardless shashka hilt at a later time. High quality blades such as these would have been passed down within families and could have been updated/modified at any time.

Ian

Andreas · 15th August 2016, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Andreas, Please take time to translate the Bouttin entry. The translation here is terrible. I have not spoken or written French for 50+ years but I do know that the last sentence should read, "It is one of our collection's best blades." No doubt your French is better than mine, so please favor us with a more meaningful translation.

Ian

The last sentence indeed translates as "It's one of the best blades of my collection", not a mean compliment I would say, coming from Buttin...
I will try to find time and translate the whole description tomorrow
Regards,
Andreas

Andreas · 16th August 2016, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Andreas, Please take time to translate the Bouttin entry.

Ian

Ian, here is the translation, as promised. I hope it's satisfactory.
Andreas

646. - SABRE OF THE CAUCASUS (Shashka), seventeenth-eighteenth century. (Pl. XX).
Excellent sixteenth century blade, slightly curved and chisel-pointed. Width 0.03 at the shoulder for 17 cm , reduced from there to 0.027 by an abrupt narrowing of the back. Three fullers up to that point, then two up to 0.20 from the tip. From this length, the blade becomes double-edged and has only one fuller which stops at 0.10 from the tip so as to conserve the point all its strength.
On the right side the mark of Genoa , which is the most esteemed in the Caucasus . For that reason it was widely copied by Syrian forgers, but the Genoese blades, especially those of the sixteenth century, are of a much better quality, have more regular fullers and the spaces between them are narrower and end in a sharp edge. The perfectly designed point is inclined enough to allow cutting strokes and at the same time suitable for thrusting, which is rare with shashkas.
Single-piece black horn grip, without guard, the pommel beaked to support the hand, and split into two lobes or ears like those of yataghans, but with a narrower gap. This is the typical form of the shashka hilt.
Green shagreen scabbard without decoration and intended to be worn tucked under the belt. The hilt half-enters in the scabbard.
An old weapon, and in a perfect state of preservation, the incomparable quality of its blade’s steel, would still make it very valuable in the Caucasus today.
It is one of the best blades of our collection.
Length : 0,940. Blade: 0,810.

15th August 2016, 05:03 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I hate to disagree with Buttin, but my gut is telling me that his dating was overly optimistic: I think that 17 or more likely 18 century at the latest would be more realistic. And again, finding even 16 century blade on a shashka does not mean that the entire "saber" was made as such in the 16 century. Genoese colonies in Crimea and Abkhazia existed since 12-13 centuries. Documented import of blades was recorded in the 17-18 centuries. What were the 17 century blades exported to Circassia used for? I do not know. And nobody does. Everybody would love to say " for shashkas", but there is not a single example of a shashka reliably or even tentatively attributed by the handle to anything earlier than the very end of 18 century. Caucasus was in the throes of uninterrupted wars for centuries; weapons were broken, lost, parts used and reused, combined and recombined.... One cannot find neither heads nor tails.

15th August 2016, 05:35 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Andreas, Please take time to translate the Bouttin entry. The translation here is terrible. I have not spoken or written French for 50+ years but I do know that the last sentence should read, "It is one of our collection's best blades." No doubt your French is better than mine, so please favor us with a more meaningful translation. On the issue of using former European blades in Caucasian shashkas, there are some gaps in logic when assuming that these were converted to shashkas in the 17th-18th C. Basically, we don't know when these shashkas were made. The blades could have been repurposed, such that a guarded hilt was replaced by the guardless shashka hilt at a later time. High quality blades such as these would have been passed down within families and could have been updated/modified at any time. Ian