Classifying shashka--a serious discussion of typology

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by ariel

We have neither physical nor iconographic examples of Caucasian shashkas older than late 18th- early 19 century.

Buttin in his catalogue shows a shashka with a 16th century Genoese blade (No 646 below). He says that these Genoese blades were the most prized in the Caucasus, a fact which led to Syrian forgeries, but of a far lesser quality.
Andreas

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Buttin in his catalogue shows a shashka with a 16th century Genoese blade (No 646 below). He says that these Genoese blades were the most prized in the Caucasus, a fact which led to Syrian forgeries, but of a far lesser quality.
Andreas

Andreas,

100% correct observation.
But old blades were mounted and remounted over and over again on Caucasian shashkas.

They were indeed highly valuable, and the term "gurda" was related to the Genoese "jaws" mark. Just like "ters maimal" ( screaming, or crazy, ape) defined a blade with the originally German ( (Passau) running wolf. Most were locally made and the variations of either mark fill large illustrations in the book by Astvatsaturyan.

~18th century German blades with elaborate depictions of "man in the moon" and arm with a sword coming from a cloud for some reason were locally called Abbas Mirza. Go figure:-))

Regretfully, there is not a single example of a 16-18 century blade mounted on contemporaneous handle, and the latter is what largely defines a shashka.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by ariel

But old blades were mounted and remounted over and over again on Caucasian shashkas.

Of course, as with swords everywhere. But if that is the case here, I wonder for what type of sword would a blade with these characteristics originally be intended for? (sorry but I don't have the time to translate right now)
Andreas

Buttin's description:
646. — SABRE DU CAUCASE (Chacheka), XVIle-XVIII, siècle. (Pl. XX).Belle lame du xvie siècle, légèrement cintrée et finissant en langue de carpe. Large de 0,03 au talon sur 17 cm. elle est à ce point, par un brusque rétrécissement au dos, ramenée à 0,027. Trois gouttières jusqu'à ce rétrécissement, puis ensuite deux jusqu'à 0,20 de la pointe. A partir de cette longueur, la lame devient à deux tranchants et n'a plus qu'une gouttière qui s'arrête à 0,10 de la pointe pour lui laisser toute sa force.Sur le côté droit le poinçon de Gênes, qui est la marque la plus estimée au Caucase.Aussi a-t-il été très copié par la contrefaçon syrienne, mais les lames génoises, surtout celles du xvie siècle, sont bien plus belles de qualité, ont les gouttières plus régulières et les intervalles qui les séparent sont plus étroits et finissent en arête vive. La pointe parfaitement calculée est assez en arrière pour permettre le coup d'estramaçon et en même temps assez aiguë pour permettre le coup de pointe, chose rare dans les chachekas. Poignée d'une seule pièce, en corne noire, sans garde, formant crosse en bec au pommeau pour retenir la main, et fendue en 2 lobes ou oreilles comme celle des yatagans, mais bien plus rapprochées. C'est la forme typique de la poignée de chacheka.Fourreau en chagrin vert, sans garniture et destiné à être passé dans la ceinture. La poignée y entre à demi.Arme ancienne, de conservation parfaite, et à laquelle la qualité incomparable de l'acier de sa lame donnerait aujourd'hui encore une grande valeur au Caucase.C'est une des meilleures lames de notre collection. Long. : 0,940. Lame : 0,810.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Of course, as with swords everywhere. But if that is the case here, I wonder for what type of sword would a blade with these characteristics originally be intended for? (sorry but I don't have the time to translate right now)
Andreas

Buttin's description:
646. — SABRE DU CAUCASE (Chacheka), XVIle-XVIII, siècle. (Pl. XX).Belle lame du xvie siècle, légèrement cintrée et finissant en langue de carpe. Large de 0,03 au talon sur 17 cm. elle est à ce point, par un brusque rétrécissement au dos, ramenée à 0,027. Trois gouttières jusqu'à ce rétrécissement, puis ensuite deux jusqu'à 0,20 de la pointe. A partir de cette longueur, la lame devient à deux tranchants et n'a plus qu'une gouttière qui s'arrête à 0,10 de la pointe pour lui laisser toute sa force.Sur le côté droit le poinçon de Gênes, qui est la marque la plus estimée au Caucase.Aussi a-t-il été très copié par la contrefaçon syrienne, mais les lames génoises, surtout celles du xvie siècle, sont bien plus belles de qualité, ont les gouttières plus régulières et les intervalles qui les séparent sont plus étroits et finissent en arête vive. La pointe parfaitement calculée est assez en arrière pour permettre le coup d'estramaçon et en même temps assez aiguë pour permettre le coup de pointe, chose rare dans les chachekas. Poignée d'une seule pièce, en corne noire, sans garde, formant crosse en bec au pommeau pour retenir la main, et fendue en 2 lobes ou oreilles comme celle des yatagans, mais bien plus rapprochées. C'est la forme typique de la poignée de chacheka.Fourreau en chagrin vert, sans garniture et destiné à être passé dans la ceinture. La poignée y entre à demi.Arme ancienne, de conservation parfaite, et à laquelle la qualité incomparable de l'acier de sa lame donnerait aujourd'hui encore une grande valeur au Caucase.C'est une des meilleures lames de notre collection. Long. : 0,940. Lame : 0,810.

646. - SABRE CAUCASUS (Chacheka), seventeenth-eighteenth century. (Pl. XX) .Beautiful blade of the sixteenth century, slightly curved and ending in language carp. 0.03 off the heel of 17 cm. it is at this point, by a sudden narrowing of the back, reduced to 0.027. Three gutters until shrinkage, then two up to 0.20 of the tip. From this length, the blade is double-edged and has only one channel which stops at 0.10 tip to give him all his force.Sur the right punch of Genoa, which is the most esteemed brand has Caucase.Aussi he was very copied by Syrian infringement, but the Genoese blades, especially those of the sixteenth century are much more beautiful in quality, have more regular gutters and the intervals separate are narrower and end in sharp edge. The perfectly calculated tip is enough back to allow the kick-edged swords and even enough time for the acute point shot, rare in chachekas. Handle one piece, black horn, without warning, forming butt spout knob to hold his hand, and split into two lobes or ears like yataghans, but closer. This is the typical form of the handle chacheka.Fourreau green grief without trim and intended to be spent in the belt. The handle is in between old demi.Arme of perfect preservation, and to which the incomparable quality of its steel blade still give great value to Caucase.C'est the best blades of our collection. Long. : 0,940. Blade: 0,810.

[ariel]

Andreas,
Obviously, there were no shashkas in Europe; such blades were used for mass manufacture of garden variety sabers, with handguards and all.

But there was a whole industry in Italy, Germany and Styria producing blades for export to the Orient. And the final product was determined by the end user: the same blade could have become shashka in Caucasus, tulwar in India, nimcha in Morocco etc. They were hugely popular everywhere and the natives quickly caught the drift and started making imitations locally and even putting European marks on them.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by ariel

Andreas,
Obviously, there were no shashkas in Europe; such blades were used for mass manufacture of garden variety sabers, with handguards and all.

But there was a whole industry in Italy, Germany and Styria producing blades for export to the Orient. And the final product was determined by the end user: the same blade could have become shashka in Caucasus, tulwar in India, nimcha in Morocco etc. They were hugely popular everywhere and the natives quickly caught the drift and started making imitations locally and even putting European marks on them.

Sorry Ariel, I'm not familiar with the expression garden variety sabers
My point was, if such 15th - 18th century blades were exported to the Caucasus, what were they exported for if not for shashkas? It seems reasonable to assume that the type existed back then, and I'm saying this because I get the impression from this thread ( I might be wrong) that the shashka is a later development, end 18th-early 19th.
Andreas

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Andreas

if such 15th - 18th century blades were exported to the Caucasus, what were they exported for if not for shashkas?

When were they exported?

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

646. - SABRE CAUCASUS (Chacheka), seventeenth-eighteenth century. (Pl. XX) .Beautiful blade of the sixteenth century, slightly curved and ending in language carp. 0.03 off the heel of 17 cm. it is at this point, by a sudden narrowing of the back, reduced to 0.027. Three gutters until shrinkage, then two up to 0.20 of the tip. From this length, the blade is double-edged and has only one channel which stops at 0.10 tip to give him all his force.Sur the right punch of Genoa, which is the most esteemed brand has Caucase.Aussi he was very copied by Syrian infringement, but the Genoese blades, especially those of the sixteenth century are much more beautiful in quality, have more regular gutters and the intervals separate are narrower and end in sharp edge. The perfectly calculated tip is enough back to allow the kick-edged swords and even enough time for the acute point shot, rare in chachekas. Handle one piece, black horn, without warning, forming butt spout knob to hold his hand, and split into two lobes or ears like yataghans, but closer. This is the typical form of the handle chacheka.Fourreau green grief without trim and intended to be spent in the belt. The handle is in between old demi.Arme of perfect preservation, and to which the incomparable quality of its steel blade still give great value to Caucase.C'est the best blades of our collection. Long. : 0,940. Blade: 0,810.

Thank you Gavin, but automatic translation does have a tendency to produce a somewhat garbled result, to say the least...