Wootz Katar

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2016, 09:26 PM

I know where my limits are, in both ends of the scala - and I have known for a very long time, but I wont tell :-).

Mercenary · 14th August 2016, 05:36 PM

If compared the number of hunts and battles in the history of India (both South and North), the answer will be obvious

Jens Nordlunde · 14th August 2016, 06:04 PM

Yes, but you must remember that they, in the south, hardly if ever showed battle scenes.

Mercenary · 14th August 2016, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes, but you must remember that they, in the south, hardly if ever showed battle scenes.

Many thanks. Of course. I know only TWO battle scenes with using jamdhar. However I'm sure that hunting was weekly or monthly, but battles weren't.

Jens Nordlunde · 14th August 2016, 09:18 PM

You are more tham welcome, but I am afraid that you dont see the point, to my opinoin, you see your own point, but Ariel asked if these katars were only used for hunting.
So when you show a lot of hunting scenes where the katar is used, you dont see the point, and what more is, you dont even try to research if they were used for fighting as well.
I have said what I need to say on this thread, so I will leave you to teach the interested members how it really was.

Mercenary · 14th August 2016, 10:46 PM

I didn't mean to offend you. To be honest, in the first place the dagger was the subject of the costume. For example Akbar had 40 pieces of each kind of dagger and every day he changed them. Only in the second turn jamdhars were used for hunting and may be some times for fighting. But I do not think that they were richly decorated of hunting scenes items. Apparently this does not apply to simple daggers without decoration.

Mercenary · 14th August 2016, 10:57 PM

It looks weird, when we believe that "tulwars shikargah" were used specially for hunting, while similarly decorated jamdhars no.

ariel · 15th August 2016, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary

If compared the number of hunts and battles in the history of India (both South and North), the answer will be obvious

The problem with this assertion is that you do not know the number of tiger hunts ( unless you can guess-timate them as above) and the number of military confrontations large and small, recorded and unrecorded, number of warriors involved, number of iconographic sources, their emphasis on the specific use of katars etc, etc, etc.

There are multiple iconographic sources of warriors armed with katars. Do you suggest they carried them into battle to protect themselves against tigers?

One can just as well posit that EVERY glorious occasion of a Rajah dispatching a tiger with katar was immediately immortalized in a miniature:-)))

mariusgmioc · 15th August 2016, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

One can just as well posit that EVERY glorious occasion of a Rajah dispatching a tiger with katar was immediately immortalized in a miniature:-)))

Killing a tiger with a Katar?!

Unless one is "Chuck Norris" ... or the tiger is half dead, that belongs to legend, not reality!

Even a severely wounded tiger could easily kill an approaching human, unless the tiger is bound and immobilized.

How many stories about Rajas being killed by tigers are there?!

How many stories/depictions of glorious Rajas killing strong and healthy tigers, single handedly and without suffering the slightest scratch are there?!

So, how realistic all these sories/depictions are?!

Jens Nordlunde · 15th August 2016, 03:07 PM

Mercenary, you did not offend me, but I can add anything to what I have already written.
There are katar on which are written that they can penetrate the head of an elephant. This does, however, not mean, that they were used for penetrating heads of elephants.
I still believe, that katars with hunting scenes on the blade were used for hunting, but I also believe that they were also used in other connections.

ariel · 15th August 2016, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I still believe, that katars with hunting scenes on the blade were used for hunting, but I also believe that they were also used in other connections.

And most likely, orders of magnitude more often on a battlefield than in a single combat against a tiger.

Marius made his point abundantly clear and I can sign under every word.

Otherwise, the average number of tigers fights per Rajah would be one. Never two:-)

There was a young lady of Niger
Who smiled as she rode on a tiger;
They returned from the ride
With the lady inside,
And the smile on the face of the tiger.

Mercenary · 16th August 2016, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I still believe, that katars with hunting scenes on the blade were used for hunting, but I also believe that they were also used in other connections.

Jens, many thanks. It is balanced and absolutely correct opinion. It is not contrary to the fact that decorative motive, corresponding to the original, the main purpose of the using such daggers became familiar and permanent. Even when tigers run out of. But prior to that tigers and lions were a lot. We know How old is katar.

Roland_M · 15th August 2016, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Killing a tiger with a Katar?!

Unless one is "Chuck Norris" ... or the tiger is half dead, that belongs to legend, not reality!

Hi Marius,
I have an official story from Indonesia from two guys which were sentenced to death and fight against a tiger with a Keris as a kind of last chance. They had Keris with broken tips and one guy was mauled after a few minutes but the other one was fighting for more than one and a half hour. He was able to kill the tiger by constantly attacking his ears and eyes.
The winner became a high member of the government.

Roland

mariusgmioc · 15th August 2016, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hi Marius,
I have an official story from Indonesia from two guys which were sentenced to death and fight against a tiger with a Keris as a kind of last chance. They had Keris with broken tips and one guy was mauled after a few minutes but the other one was fighting for more than one and a half hour. He was able to kill the tiger by constantly attacking his ears and eyes.
The winner became a high member of the government.

Roland

Hello Roland,

Maybe true... but just maybe!

The numerous stories of the Indian Rajas killing single handedly a tiger were also official. Some of them, even officially recorded.

That said, it should be noted that
1. the guy in your story was fighting an Indonesian tiger, which was significantly smaller (about half the size) than a Bengali Tiger;
2. it was a captive tiger that most likely was raised in captivity and didn't even know how to hunt and didn't see humans as prey, and that might have been in significantly worse shape than a healthy free-roaming Indian tiger;
3. the fight was in a closed enclosure;
4. even if he killed the tiger, it might have been a lucky exception rather than the rule;
5. even with all points 1-4 taken into consideration, the statistical odds of winning a fight with a tiger was only 50% since the other prisoneer was killed.

PS: This doesn't mean it isn't possible to kill a tiger with a knife, and survive the fight... but it is extremely improbable.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th August 2016, 01:51 AM

This would hurt....

ariel · 17th August 2016, 02:35 AM

Yup...

His groin must have been sore for weeks:-)

14th August 2016, 05:36 PM	#2
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	If compared the number of hunts and battles in the history of India (both South and North), the answer will be obvious Attached Images

14th August 2016, 09:18 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	You are more tham welcome, but I am afraid that you dont see the point, to my opinoin, you see your own point, but Ariel asked if these katars were only used for hunting. So when you show a lot of hunting scenes where the katar is used, you dont see the point, and what more is, you dont even try to research if they were used for fighting as well. I have said what I need to say on this thread, so I will leave you to teach the interested members how it really was. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 14th August 2016 at 09:37 PM.

14th August 2016, 10:46 PM	#6
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	I didn't mean to offend you. To be honest, in the first place the dagger was the subject of the costume. For example Akbar had 40 pieces of each kind of dagger and every day he changed them. Only in the second turn jamdhars were used for hunting and may be some times for fighting. But I do not think that they were richly decorated of hunting scenes items. Apparently this does not apply to simple daggers without decoration. Last edited by Mercenary; 14th August 2016 at 11:11 PM.

14th August 2016, 10:57 PM	#7
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	It looks weird, when we believe that "tulwars shikargah" were used specially for hunting, while similarly decorated jamdhars no. Last edited by Mercenary; 14th August 2016 at 11:11 PM.

17th August 2016, 01:51 AM	#15
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	This would hurt.... Attached Images

9th August 2016, 09:26 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I know where my limits are, in both ends of the scala - and I have known for a very long time, but I wont tell :-).

14th August 2016, 06:04 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes, but you must remember that they, in the south, hardly if ever showed battle scenes.

15th August 2016, 03:07 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Mercenary, you did not offend me, but I can add anything to what I have already written. There are katar on which are written that they can penetrate the head of an elephant. This does, however, not mean, that they were used for penetrating heads of elephants. I still believe, that katars with hunting scenes on the blade were used for hunting, but I also believe that they were also used in other connections.

17th August 2016, 02:35 AM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yup... His groin must have been sore for weeks:-)