Persian Pesh-kabz

[mariusgmioc]

I would like to know oppinions about the age of the wootz Pesh-kabz in the photos attached.

I have a rough idea about its age but I would rather not put it down as I don't want to create any bias.

[Sajen]

Not the area of my collecting but it's a beautiful dagger!

Regards,
Detlef

[estcrh]

Very nice, I would guess 18th century based on others I have seen and the detail work that often is not as extensive on later examples, just a guess though.

[Ian]

This is remarkably well preserved and the koftgari work is perfect--clear and crisp. I don't think this one is very old. There is some beautiful work being produced in Rajasthan these days, with high quality silver and gold inlays. The marine ivory (?) hilt is also perfect (apart from one small crack and chip adjacent to the blade). Just too pristine to be very old IMO. But I have been wrong before.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Ian

This is remarkably well preserved and the koftgari work is perfect--clear and crisp. I don't think this one is very old. There is some beautiful work being produced in Rajasthan these days, with high quality silver and gold inlays. The marine ivory (?) hilt is also perfect (apart from one small crack and chip adjacent to the blade). Just too pristine to be very old IMO. But I have been wrong before.

It is not koftgary but true inlay damascening...

And it is wootz.

One more photo after etching. I don't know if it is noticeable in the first photos that the blade is rather heavily pitted. So I etched it almost without any additional polishing directly over the existing pitting.

Comes from a generations old Baron von Weyhe collection.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ian

This is remarkably well preserved and the koftgari work is perfect--clear and crisp. I don't think this one is very old. There is some beautiful work being produced in Rajasthan these days, with high quality silver and gold inlays. The marine ivory (?) hilt is also perfect (apart from one small crack and chip adjacent to the blade). Just too pristine to be very old IMO. But I have been wrong before.

I think the wear to the hilt is consistent with a dagger that was worn for a long time but not pulled out very often. I have not seen a modern made Indian example with a worn walrus ivory hilt.

[mahratt]

Beautiful dagger!

[mariusgmioc]

There simply aren't ANY modern Indian examples made of wootz!

[Ian]

marius:

The only way an old knife like this could have survived in its present condition is for it to have been handled very seldom and basically kept in a cabinet or drawer. That it came from an old collection, and probably not worn during that time, would explain why it has remained so pristine. It is a very high quality knife. Congratulations if you happen to own it.

There are similar knives with koftgari work (rather than inlaid) still being made. I'm not sure if walrus ivory is still available for use on such modern examples.

Ian.

[CharlesS]

I love these elegant daggers. This one is superb in both style and quality. The chiseling is magnificent, and always nice to see the horn bolsters for the scales in such nice shape. Great get!

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Ian

marius:

The only way an old knife like this could have survived in its present condition is for it to have been handled very seldom and basically kept in a cabinet or drawer. That it came from an old collection, and probably not worn during that time, would explain why it has remained so pristine. It is a very high quality knife. Congratulations if you happen to own it.

There are similar knives with koftgari work (rather than inlaid) still being made. I'm not sure if walrus ivory is still available for use on such modern examples.

Ian.

Thank you Ian for your nice words!

However, there are no modern wootz knives like this being made and also didn't see anything with such engravings. Remember that wootz practically dissapeared by the end of 18th century and its technology was lost.

Also walrus ivory needs centuries to gain this marbled uniform aspect.

[Ian]

Marius, that is not entirely true. The making of wootz or bulat was revived by the Russian metallurgist Pavel Asonov in the 19th C. and modern metallurgy can produce a fair approximation to traditional wootz.

On a personal note, I was shown a number of high end knives made from the 1970s to the 1990s that had new blades indistinguishable from traditional wootz. These were in the possession of a member of an Indian royal family to whom I was introduced by a dear friend. Unfortunately, I was not permitted to photograph these knives and swords, but they were outstanding in their construction and decoration. While the decoration was performed by Indian craftsmen, it was unclear where the blades were forged and my informant either did not know or wasn't saying.

When I say there are outstanding examples coming from modern Rajasthan and other parts of NW India, I am not talking about what appears on eBay and other online sources, but rather what I have seen custom made for people of substantial standing in Indian society. Of the latter, I have seen no pictures published.

Ian

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

There simply aren't ANY modern Indian examples made of wootz!

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Ian

Marius, that is not entirely true. The making of wootz or bulat was revived by the Russian metallurgist Pavel Asonov in the 19th C. and modern metallurgy can produce a fair approximation to traditional wootz.

On a personal note, I was shown a number of high end knives made from the 1970s to the 1990s that had new blades indistinguishable from traditional wootz. These were in the possession of a member of an Indian royal family to whom I was introduced by a dear friend. Unfortunately, I was not permitted to photograph these knives and swords, but they were outstanding in their construction and decoration. While the decoration was performed by Indian craftsmen, it was unclear where the blades were forged and my informant either did not know or wasn't saying.

When I say there are outstanding examples coming from modern Rajasthan and other parts of NW India, I am not talking about what appears on eBay and other online sources, but rather what I have seen custom made for people of substantial standing in Indian society. Of the latter, I have seen no pictures published.

Ian

That is very interesting!

You were shown a number of high end knives like the one in the photos (also in my possesion)?

I seriously doubt that the wootz swords indistinguishible from old wootz were recently made. What they usually do, is to get mundane wootz blades (as there are in the thousands lying in the armouries of the Rajastani artistocrats), clean them, etch them, decorate them with new koftgari and fit them with new hilts and scabbards and then they claim they made them anew (something like the one in the photos - 18th century blade given a completely new - 1970 - make-up).

And that's precisely why it was so unclear where the blades were forged, as they weren't forged anywhere but were taken from old armouries.

I had a similar experience in Mumbai where I visited a swordsmith's workshop. They also showed me some exceptional wootz blades they said they made themselves but when I asked them to make a blade of my design, a was refused bluntly. I later found out about the trick with refurbishing old wootz blades from an Indian dealer.

I am quite familiar with the works of Asonov, Verhoeven and Pendray (and their works are public knowledge) and I have seen quite a lot of the new wootz but everything I saw was significantly different from the antique wootz. If it were otherwise, we would see new wootz knives up for sale regularly, and maybe even see a major knife-producing company aquiring the technology and producing them on larger scale but this never happens.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

... What they usually do, is to get mundane wootz blades (as there are in the thousands lying in the armouries of the Rajastani artistocrats), clean them, etch them, decorate them with new koftgari and fit them with new hilts and scabbards and then they claim they made it anew (something like the one in the photos) ...

Quite possible.

Are these restored older knives or swords, or are they newly made with some older parts? To me these are newly made in an older style, especially when decorative features are added that were not originally present. As such, when I see nearly perfect decorative work (koftgari, hilts) on what should be an old blade I am very suspicious that this is the work of a modern craftsman and not an antique example.

That's why I am immediately suspicious of specimens that appear to be too good to be true--like the excellent example that you have shown at the head of this thread which is almost flawless. My immediate reaction is to ask why this is not a recently made/put together piece, or an older plain piece that has been dressed up recently to look better or more important (i.e., more expensive) than it should.

You have excellent provenance for your lovely knife and I have no problem accepting that it is a superb example of an antique knife.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Ian

Quite possible.

Are these restored older knives or swords, or are they newly made with some older parts? To me these are newly made in an older style, especially when decorative features are added that were not originally present. As such, when I see nearly perfect decorative work (koftgari, hilts) on what should be an old blade I am very suspicious that this is the work of a modern craftsman and not an antique example.

That's why I am immediately suspicious of specimens that appear to be too good to be true--like the excellent example that you have shown at the head of this thread which is almost flawless. My immediate reaction is to ask why this is not a recently made/put together piece, or an older plain piece that has been dressed up recently to look better or more important (i.e., more expensive) than it should.

You have excellent provenance for your lovely knife and I have no problem accepting that it is a superb example of an antique knife.

Almost flawless is the second example. The first one has, unfortunately, far too many signs of very old age (pitting, cracks, missing parts, almost petrified leather spacers and extremely old walrus ivory). It is however in very good condition in comparison with some less fortunate contemporaries.

To my knowledge, unfortunately, there are no contemporary bladesmiths capable of making such minute detailed engravings. As I don't know any contemporary artists working in the old true damascening technique.

The second one is not restored, but completely made anew. But made anew in precisely old style and using an old, original 18th century blade. So blade and style old, everything else new.

[Bob A]

I wouldn't have a problem attributing at least moderate aging to the originally-posted dagger. The determining factor for me is the old damage to the hilt; one bit had broken off and been lost, the corresponding area on the other side has been repaired, the broken bit returned and pinned in a similar fashion to the original installation. Then too, the photo of the grip scales taken from above the back of the dagger shows one scale to be slightly longer than the other, with the horn(?) liner obviously shorter. I don't know if the subtleties of the modern forgers would deliberately go to those extremes to fake a certain age.

The idea of using old blades to fake modern antiques is charming, and mankind's constant quest for adding value is an inspiration to us all. Digging about for information is not so different from digging about for antique parts to resurrect; both processes add value to an object, using different but still high-level skill sets. Antique faking is a skill that goes back to, yes, antiquity, and will persist as long as does mankind.

Whatever the age, the objects in this thread are breath-taking in their execution, and I'd be pleased and proud to own any of them, even if I was proved a fool for so doing. Who cares? They're gorgeous daggers.

[Sajen]

Very nice pieces you have there, you care them good and you are able to take very good pictures!

Best regards,
Detlef

[Bob A]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

To my knowledge, unfortunately, there are no contemporary bladesmiths capable of making such minute detailed engravings. As I don't know any contemporary artists working in the old true damascening technique.

A brief bit of googling "modern blade engraving" leads me to believe that nothing is impossible. Just by way of example, apples v oranges, a link to some eye candy . . . http://www.engravingglossary.com/Han...ossary%20D.htm

[mariusgmioc]

@ Detlef

Most of the photos were taken by the professional photographer of Czerny's. So it is his merit, not mine! Mine is only the one detailing the watering of the first knife (the one with green background).

When I got it, it had absolutely no trace of wootz so I had to etch it myself. It was the first blade I etched (but before that I spent tens of hours experimenting on a mundane wootz blade to make sure I don't damage the it in any way).

@ Bob A

As far as I remember, I paid for the second one significantly more than for the first one, despite knowing up-front it is a fully refurbished knife. It is however fully refurbished in the old style, employing genuine materials (elephant ivory) technique and skills. So it definitely is an 100% authentic knife. You can even say it is late 18th century since the blade defines the knife. But the most correct definition would be something like "18th century recently refurbished Indian Pesk-kabz."

Thank you for the sample photos of new engravings! They are definitely astonishing.

PS: I estimated the first one to be from the second half of 17th century (based on comparisons with similar examples). However, it can be early 18th century as well... I guess.

[ariel]

There are no contemporary bladesmiths capable to recreate the beauty of Indo-Persian wootz. None. Zero.

And this is despite the fact that modern metallurgy knows orders of magnitude more about technology of wootz making, with complex diagrams, exact temperatures, precise percentages of carbon and rare elements.

IMHO, and as I have learned from high class bladesmiths, the quality of wootz ingot contributes only part of the final result. Wootz ingots were exported from India in tens of thousands, and it was impossible to pre-test each and every one. Good and bad ingots went to Persia, Turkey, Egypt, Syria , Central Asia, Caucasus, you name it.

But the final blades from the Ottoman areal were always very simple, whereas Persian blade carried fantastic tabans.

What decided the fate of the final product was the technique of forging the blade: direction of the blows, their force, their number, the temperatures to start and to end forging and a multitude of yet unknown ( really forgotten) small tricks of the trade.


Whereas the former ( wootz ingots manufacture) can be reproduced scientifically, the latter ( blade forging) is not a science, it is an art. And that cannot be recreated by a single generation of even the best and the brightest modern smiths. Once lost, this art requires starting from scratch.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

There simply aren't ANY modern Indian examples made of wootz!

There are some that have been reworked from old wootz blades but the rest of the work looks very new.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

@ Detlef

Most of the photos were taken by the professional photographer of Czerny's. So it is his merit, not mine! Mine is only the one detailing the watering of the first knife (the one with green background).

When I got it, it had absolutely no trace of wootz so I had to etch it myself. It was the first blade I etched (but before that I spent tens of hours experimenting on a mundane wootz blade to make sure I don't damage the it in any way).

The Baron von Weyhe collection was sold many years ago I thought, was this from the original sale or a more recent resale?

[Oliver Pinchot]

Your pesh qabz dates in the first half of the 18th century.

[Gavin Nugent]

These are both very fine types presented, and are presentation grade knives from the Northern West Indian and Afghan regions.
The first is certainly 18th century, many have been seen the market place in years past, several with impeccable provenance...whilst carrying Indian motifs, I'd place this towards in and in to the Afghan Indian frontiers.
The second in the red sheath, also Indian, into these Indo-Afghan frontiers, and IMHO, 19th century, circa 1800, Indian made....it could swing a couple of decades either way.
Whilst Persian influence may have been seen throughout these countries, I do not see these as Persian, but Indian made.
As far as pristine condition goes, the men of standing who received these gifts, their estates typically had the means to keep their personal effects in fine condition for generations.

Gavin

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Your pesh qabz dates in the first half of the 18th century.

Thank you Oliver! I was a little more generous but since it is my knife it is undestandable.

[mariusgmioc]

@ estrch

I got it just a few years ago but I don't know wheteher it was a remanant of the original sale or a resale.

@ Gavin

The second one is certainly North Indian.

The first one I am pretty sure is Persian (maybe Isfahan). I believe the Afghan ones tend to have longer blades and stouter hilts. Also the decoration style might be somehow diferent.
But it can be that I am wrong since in that area both styles and smiths travelled quite freely.