Classifying shashka--a serious discussion of typology

ariel · 8th August 2016, 06:55 PM

Ian,
One cannot define a shashka outside of its geographic and ethnic origin. It is originally a Circassian weapon that spread into Daghestan, Chechnia and partly into Transcaucasia.
It went to the Ottoman Empire with Circassian exiles, muhadjirs, and there are well documented examples manufactured there.
Other than those two areas there were no examples of a true Caucasian pattern in other cultures, societies etc.

Attempts are made to ascribe the so-called Beduin sabre ( Negev, Sinai) to simplified version of Caucasian shashkas brought to the area my the above muhadjirs. The problem with it resides with the existence of almost exact copies of the "Beduin" examples among Croatian Kraisniks, votive swords in the Sword Mosque in Qairuan, Tunisia and Sardinian Leppas. It forces one to suspect that the above "shashka-like" examples are just simple ergonomic sabers not reflecting any ethnic heritage.

At the end of 19th century Russian government established a Cossack Brigade in Iran under the tutelage of Russian officers. The Iranian recruits were armed with Russian military sabers 1881 pattern and we still see "Russian Military Shashkas" with Persian numbering on e-bay. Those have absolutely nothing to do with Caucasian tradition.

In the 19th century Russians occupied Central Asian Khanates and had close ties with the Afghani military ( see. P. Hopkirk " The Great Game"). That , most likely, was reflected in military Afghani pseudoshashkas , that combined both local ( eg integral bolster etc) and Cossack elements inherited by them from their Caucasian foes ( suspension system, forked pommel, - both " Caucasian" but not quite).

The other Central Asian guardless sabers ( including Bukharan) were not military, but truly indigenous weapons, and as such were not modified according to foreign influences. Khanates had no regular armies and consequently no regulation weapons. Individual masters followed old traditions and had no incentive or reason to copy weapons of the occupier.

We recently encountered yet another fascinating pattern: "Indian pseudoshashka" with tunkou and D-guard but no quillons. I do not know where to place it. I may only cautiously suspect that it also has derivative features of a Khyber, but may be very wrong.

Thus, if we want to discuss Shashkas, we are obligated to limit ourselves to the Caucasian examples and their locally-produced ethnic copies ( Ottoman Muhadjirs).

We may legitimately discuss the degree of "Caucasian" influence ( through Russian cossacks) upon Afghani military examples of guardless sabers. That is why, IMHO, Lebedinski was correct in calling them "pseudoshashkas".

The rest of guardless sabers, from Ottoman yataghans to Bukharan sabers, Khybers, Parangs etc have nothing to do with Caucasian tradition and the term shashka should not be allowed to touch them:-)

There cannot be such thing as French Katana, Japanese Jambia , Congolese Sgian Dubh or Vietnamese Kattara.

Certain weapons around the world are inseparable from their ethnic roots and that is how it should be.

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 07:10 PM

Very, very many words

By the logic of Ariel - only Persian Shamshir - real Shamshir. Shamshir in the Balkans - is psevdoshamshir))))

Shashka - this concept is not associated with a particular ethnic region.

ariel · 8th August 2016, 07:12 PM

No, laddie, it is "checkers" :-)))))))))))))

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

No, laddie, it is "checkers" :-)))))))))))))

An oldie, I'm sorry)))) It is - Google Translate. I do not think that you're so - brake)))

Andreas · 8th August 2016, 07:23 PM

Hello,
A couple of questions, please. Is it correct that shashka is an Adyghe word, meaning big knife? If so, is the word to be found also in related languages? Also, what is the earliest known mention of the term with the meaning of a guardless sabre?
Thanks,
Andreas

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2016, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

Hello,
A couple of questions, please. Is it correct that shashka is an Adyghe word, meaning big knife? If so, is the word to be found also in related languages? Also, what is the earliest known mention of the term with the meaning of a guardless sabre?
Thanks,
Andreas

I believe Philip Tom said in 2001 that it was a Circassian word, but I'm no linguist and perhaps the Adaghe aspect might fall into the dialectic mix. I think Ariel is far more the one to address this as he and Kirill Rivkin have spent many years looking into these things on the Caucusus.

Mahratt, what is 'checkers' ? I think there might be translation error.

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

Hello,
A couple of questions, please. Is it correct that shashka is an Adyghe word, meaning big knife? If so, is the word to be found also in related languages? Also, what is the earliest known mention of the term with the meaning of a guardless sabre?
Thanks,
Andreas

I'll be glad to see this information, if show me a page from Adyghe dictionary. Now it is a matter of controversy among people who explore in Russian weapons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Mahratt, what is 'checkers' ? I think there might be translation error.

Jim - my laziness and Google Translate))) Of course I meant "shashka"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

The Tunisian examples are not even shashka like. They are short swords one edge, more like the khyber knife. To the opposite the shashka are the swords of the steppic horsemen to quote Lebedinski. You know better than me the difference between a sabre and a short sword. And for me the Bukharan pseudo shashka can be connected to the shashka because of their central Asian origin.
Kubur

Kubur, why "pseudo"?)))

It seemed to me that I demonstrated that the Afghan shashkas - are all signs of "shashkas". At the same time they do not copy the Russian shashkas. In contrast to the complete resemblance Caucasian and Russian (Cossack) shashkas (there really was borrowing)

Andreas · 8th August 2016, 08:10 PM

[QUOTE=mahratt]I'll be glad to see this information, if show me a page from Adyghe dictionary. Now it is a matter of controversy among people who explore in Russian weapons.

Well, it's written in Cyrillic since 1936, but before Arabic was used, see https://archive.org/details/adictionarycirc01loewgoog

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

Well, it's written in Cyrillic since 1936, but before Arabic was used, see https://archive.org/details/adictionarycirc01loewgoog

I think we all know, that shashka appeared earlier 1936) But when appeared the word "sa-shko" - the big question)

Speaking seriously, the first time the word "sa-shko" referred to in 1860, as the Circassian word.

But an interesting fact. The British spy in the Caucasus - Edmund Spenser, describing the armed indigenous wrote to "sabre," and not "shashka." And this is despite the fact that on the flyleaf of the first volume of his book 1839 edition depicts mountaineer with his shashka on his belt.

Although maybe I was inattentive?

Nevertheless. It is possible that the term "Sa-shko" has the same origin as "kangaroo"

I hope you know the story of the origin of the name))))

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 07:27 PM

I explain why must not talk about the "shashka" in the context of the ethnic region. Shashka (with all its attributes) has been in the whole of the Russian army (cavalry). On the whole territory of Russia. These weapons, which I quoted in the post number 13 - all of it has always been called"shashka"

Kubur · 8th August 2016, 07:26 PM

Ariel, I mostly agree. 90%

I fully agree with 2 main points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

We may legitimately discuss the degree of "Caucasian" influence ( through Russian cossacks) upon Afghani military examples of guardless sabers. That is why, IMHO, Lebedinski was correct in calling them "pseudoshashkas".

Certain weapons around the world are inseparable from their ethnic roots and that is how it should be.

I just disagree with

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

votive swords in the Sword Mosque in Qairuan, Tunisia and Sardinian Leppas. It forces one to suspect that the above "shashka-like" examples are just simple ergonomic sabers not reflecting any ethnic heritage.

We may legitimately discuss the degree of "Caucasian" influence ( through Russian cossacks) upon Afghani military examples of guardless sabers. That is why, IMHO, Lebedinski was correct in calling them "pseudoshashkas".
.

The Tunisian examples are not even shashka like. They are short swords one edge, more like the khyber knife. To the opposite the shashka are the swords of the steppic horsemen to quote Lebedinski. You know better than me the difference between a sabre and a short sword. And for me the Bukharan pseudo shashka can be connected to the shashka because of their central Asian origin.

Kubur

ariel · 8th August 2016, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I just disagree with

The Tunisian examples are not even shashka like. They are short swords one edge, more like the khyber knife. To the opposite the shashka are the swords of the steppic horsemen to quote Lebedinski. You know better than me the difference between a sabre and a short sword. And for me the Bukharan pseudo shashka can be connected to the shashka because of their central Asian origin.

Kubur

Of course they are not! I thought I made it clear, but obviously did not.
They are just very crude heavy blades with the handles eerily resembling those of the Beduin. No more. But because Beduin sabers had no guards, it was occasionally assumed ( my fault, too....) that Palestinian beduins crudely copied Circassian shashkas brought there by the exiled Shapsughs. There are quite a lot if Circassians in Israel and Jordan.

Circassian shashka was not of Central Asian origin. It would require reams of paper to address this narrow issue. I can only suggest getting Kirill Rivkin's book.

Just one small point: nomads, Alans including, had real sabers, with crossguards.

8th August 2016, 06:55 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ian, One cannot define a shashka outside of its geographic and ethnic origin. It is originally a Circassian weapon that spread into Daghestan, Chechnia and partly into Transcaucasia. It went to the Ottoman Empire with Circassian exiles, muhadjirs, and there are well documented examples manufactured there. Other than those two areas there were no examples of a true Caucasian pattern in other cultures, societies etc. Attempts are made to ascribe the so-called Beduin sabre ( Negev, Sinai) to simplified version of Caucasian shashkas brought to the area my the above muhadjirs. The problem with it resides with the existence of almost exact copies of the "Beduin" examples among Croatian Kraisniks, votive swords in the Sword Mosque in Qairuan, Tunisia and Sardinian Leppas. It forces one to suspect that the above "shashka-like" examples are just simple ergonomic sabers not reflecting any ethnic heritage. At the end of 19th century Russian government established a Cossack Brigade in Iran under the tutelage of Russian officers. The Iranian recruits were armed with Russian military sabers 1881 pattern and we still see "Russian Military Shashkas" with Persian numbering on e-bay. Those have absolutely nothing to do with Caucasian tradition. In the 19th century Russians occupied Central Asian Khanates and had close ties with the Afghani military ( see. P. Hopkirk " The Great Game"). That , most likely, was reflected in military Afghani pseudoshashkas , that combined both local ( eg integral bolster etc) and Cossack elements inherited by them from their Caucasian foes ( suspension system, forked pommel, - both " Caucasian" but not quite). The other Central Asian guardless sabers ( including Bukharan) were not military, but truly indigenous weapons, and as such were not modified according to foreign influences. Khanates had no regular armies and consequently no regulation weapons. Individual masters followed old traditions and had no incentive or reason to copy weapons of the occupier. We recently encountered yet another fascinating pattern: "Indian pseudoshashka" with tunkou and D-guard but no quillons. I do not know where to place it. I may only cautiously suspect that it also has derivative features of a Khyber, but may be very wrong. Thus, if we want to discuss Shashkas, we are obligated to limit ourselves to the Caucasian examples and their locally-produced ethnic copies ( Ottoman Muhadjirs). We may legitimately discuss the degree of "Caucasian" influence ( through Russian cossacks) upon Afghani military examples of guardless sabers. That is why, IMHO, Lebedinski was correct in calling them "pseudoshashkas". The rest of guardless sabers, from Ottoman yataghans to Bukharan sabers, Khybers, Parangs etc have nothing to do with Caucasian tradition and the term shashka should not be allowed to touch them:-) There cannot be such thing as French Katana, Japanese Jambia , Congolese Sgian Dubh or Vietnamese Kattara. Certain weapons around the world are inseparable from their ethnic roots and that is how it should be. Last edited by ariel; 8th August 2016 at 07:11 PM.

8th August 2016, 07:10 PM	#2
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Very, very many words By the logic of Ariel - only Persian Shamshir - real Shamshir. Shamshir in the Balkans - is psevdoshamshir)))) Shashka - this concept is not associated with a particular ethnic region.

8th August 2016, 07:12 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No, laddie, it is "checkers" :-)))))))))))))

8th August 2016, 07:23 PM	#5
Andreas Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ionian Islands, Greece Posts: 96	Hello, A couple of questions, please. Is it correct that shashka is an Adyghe word, meaning big knife? If so, is the word to be found also in related languages? Also, what is the earliest known mention of the term with the meaning of a guardless sabre? Thanks, Andreas

8th August 2016, 08:10 PM	#8
Andreas Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ionian Islands, Greece Posts: 96	[QUOTE=mahratt]I'll be glad to see this information, if show me a page from Adyghe dictionary. Now it is a matter of controversy among people who explore in Russian weapons. Well, it's written in Cyrillic since 1936, but before Arabic was used, see https://archive.org/details/adictionarycirc01loewgoog

8th August 2016, 07:27 PM	#10
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I explain why must not talk about the "shashka" in the context of the ethnic region. Shashka (with all its attributes) has been in the whole of the Russian army (cavalry). On the whole territory of Russia. These weapons, which I quoted in the post number 13 - all of it has always been called"shashka"