Yet another Tulwar

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Many thanks Abrahiim, great pics, they really emphasize the diversity of the many hilt designs. Many thanks
Regards
Miguel

I note that these swords were also made by English sword makers...

FOR INTEREST...SEE http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ILKINSON+SWORD

Could the project sword at #1 be English?

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I note that these swords were also made by English sword makers...

FOR INTEREST...SEE http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ILKINSON+SWORD

Could the project sword at #1 be English?

Hello Ibrahiim,
Interesting thought. I don't think the blade is English due to its design it looks more European to me. From the Wilkinson info the blades they supplied were also shorter than the one on my sword but I am not that knowledgeable. The English swords I have and the ones I have seen are of a different design actually in my opinion not as good.
Regards
Miguel

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Miguel,
First of all, thank you for the kind words in your earlier post, I am most grateful.

To clarify, in the discussion linked, the Wilkinson Sword Co. among others were suppliers to the British colonies in India, most of the others were either subordinate to or contracted to Wilkinson.
The design of the tulwar (Indo-Persian) hilt was of course a development from iconographic Indian hilt forms actually from more ancient times, which evolved at a yet distinctly undetermined period. The progression was quite subtle, and reached its more familiar form probably around the 16th c.

In the British Raj, there were an ever increasing number of native units in the British army, and supplying them was a huge undertaking. By the second half of the 19th century, while variations of regulation British military patterns prevailed, many units were allowed to choose their own favored types. Naturally the 'tulwar' was highly selected.

Actually Wilkinson and the Mole company, a subcontractor, produced both British patterns as well as the Indian style tulwar hilts. I once had brass tulwar hilted examples marked MOLE.

With the military style sabres produced (known as the Paget style) these had blades in either 31" or 33" lengths. I cannot recall details but these were apportioned to different districts, Bengal and Madras. There were numbers of other variations in Wilkinson records.

Meanwhile, in earlier East India Company times (pre 1857), there are numbers of Indian hilted (both khanda and tulwar) swords mounted with British military blades. These are hybrids from either captured or discarded British swords and in some cases the whims of flamboyant British officers in some of these native units, with any number of probabilities.
These practices and situations prevailed throughout the Raj.

In most cases the British blades are marked, while various European imported blades may or may not be marked. Solingen in the later years of the century had numbers of producers who produced volumes of 'blanks' for export to various markets.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Please see charts...One is a Mantons whilst Wilkinsons is the other focusing on blades to Ethiopia...Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20288;

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

If I may suggest a few other examples of Tulvar so as to expand the knowledge base on Library and to observe the variety of different designs including bling! court swords and those of the common soldier...Here goes...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

There are pictures that are difficult to copy at http://indianfight.com/indian-technique-with-a-sword/ showing fighting form with Tulvars..Here is one...

[scinde]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Please see charts...One is a Mantons whilst Wilkinsons is the other focusing on blades to Ethiopia...Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20288;

Hi all,

Not specifically in relation to Tulwar, but reference the Manton catalogue entry 512A straight-bladed Scimitar, can anyone shed any light on the earliest date and origin of Indian pattern scabbards having three sling-rings on the scabbard, such as illustrated in the catalogue with this sword.

Gordon

[Jens Nordlunde]

Sketches of Tulvar Hilts ...

No not really, it is sketches of different kinds of decoration. Decoration of the hilts was a highly skilled craft, and you could, from drawings choose the decoration you liked best.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I was directed to our own library for an interesting view of a Tulvar hilt with a Shamshir blade ... Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/

In this gold Hilt and Shamshir is the interesting name of this form ..

I Quote "A Shamshir with a typical Indo-Muslim hilt of Delhishahi form, likely 18th century. Many authorities would classify this as a Talwar based upon this hilt, which is of iron covered by a thick layer of yellow gold. A false ricasso in the form of two plates with an embossed and gilded intertwined floral pattern may be seen behind the langets covering the root of the blade. The blade is of wootz steel and bears a gold inlaid Arabic inscription on its spine, likely a religious invocation or prayer. A cartouche with inscription made as a series of small punched marks is present and is illustrated and further described above as b. Overall length: 92.5 cm. (36.2 inches); blade length: 80 cm. (31.2 inches)".Unquote.

On investigating further I discovered that Tipu Sultan also had one of these forms...

I Quote"This Object is a Masterpiece as the National Museum has only one such sword. The sword belongs to emperor Tipu Sultan, who was ruler of Mysore, Karnataka. The Delhishahi hilt with its circular disc pommel, oval grip, small knuckle-guard, short quilons and small langets, is damascened in gold in floral, creeper and geometrical designs all over. The blade is similarly ornamented with floral motifs in gold, and the wooden sheath is covered with maroon velvet.
History of the Object
The sword of Tipu Sultan of Mysore belongs to the closing years of the 18th century. The curved blade is single -edged and is made of fine steel. It is inscribed, on both sides, with the verses from the Holy Quran; the name of Tipu and that of his capital Srirangapattnam are recorded in Tugra style. The verses in Arabic Naskh read: Innal Allah-i-Ala Kulli Shaien Qadeer (Allah is the most powerful and omnipotent ) Nasrun-Minal Alllah-i-Fathun Qarib (With the help of Allah the victory is very near).Wa-Man Yatawakkal Alal Allah-i-Fahua Husbohu Ya Hafiz (Who has faith in Allah, Allah is enough for him). The hilt consists of a circular disc pommel, an oval grip, short quilons, small langets and a knuckle-guard for the protection of hand."Unquote.

This sword can be seen at http://masterpieces.asemus.museum/ma...objectId=14297..

The second sword on black background is shown below and seems to be another of Tipu Sultans many weapons, thus, since it seems to be of Delhishami form I include it here...It differs only in the absence of a Knuckle Guard.

I conclude; it seems logical that attached knuckle guards can be added to hilts without change to the hilt name..In the same way no hilt name change is applied even if the entire hilt is decorated florally, covered in precious metal, inscribed in gold or silver script or even if the blade is entirely switched ...for example with a Shamshir or gilded in Koftgari or with other scroll work under the rainguard or on the blade...The name still stands of the base form.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Miguel,
First of all, thank you for the kind words in your earlier post, I am most grateful.

To clarify, in the discussion linked, the Wilkinson Sword Co. among others were suppliers to the British colonies in India, most of the others were either subordinate to or contracted to Wilkinson.
The design of the tulwar (Indo-Persian) hilt was of course a development from iconographic Indian hilt forms actually from more ancient times, which evolved at a yet distinctly undetermined period. The progression was quite subtle, and reached its more familiar form probably around the 16th c.

In the British Raj, there were an ever increasing number of native units in the British army, and supplying them was a huge undertaking. By the second half of the 19th century, while variations of regulation British military patterns prevailed, many units were allowed to choose their own favored types. Naturally the 'tulwar' was highly selected.

Actually Wilkinson and the Mole company, a subcontractor, produced both British patterns as well as the Indian style tulwar hilts. I once had brass tulwar hilted examples marked MOLE.

With the military style sabres produced (known as the Paget style) these had blades in either 31" or 33" lengths. I cannot recall details but these were apportioned to different districts, Bengal and Madras. There were numbers of other variations in Wilkinson records.

Meanwhile, in earlier East India Company times (pre 1857), there are numbers of Indian hilted (both khanda and tulwar) swords mounted with British military blades. These are hybrids from either captured or discarded British swords and in some cases the whims of flamboyant British officers in some of these native units, with any number of probabilities.
These practices and situations prevailed throughout the Raj.

In most cases the British blades are marked, while various European imported blades may or may not be marked. Solingen in the later years of the century had numbers of producers who produced volumes of 'blanks' for export to various markets.

Hello Jim,

Thank you for the very interesting info on the Wilkinson Sword Co but I think your first reply had the answers. Ibrahim provide a link showing Dungapuri hilts which you had referred to and I have at last found a sword with a blade having the same shape and disposition of fullers as on the Tulwar
Unfortunately I do not have the dimensions of this sword which is a circa 1730 / 1740 Austrian sabre for Grenadiers of Cuirassier and Dragoon regiments This is not to far away from your thoughts about likening it to possibly an 18th century Hungarian Hussar`s sabre, both part of the Hapsburg empire and may well have been used by other countries within it. Having said that I am still unaware of the name of the Company, probably German, but not definite, who made them. In case you are interested the title of the book that I found this in is " The Encyclopedia of European Historical Weapons" by Dr Vladimir Dolinek and Dr Jan Durdik published in GB in 1993.
Thank you again for your input which is always much appreciated.
Regards
Miguel
Miguel

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Jim,

Thank you for the very interesting info on the Wilkinson Sword Co but I think your first reply had the answers. Ibrahim provide a link showing Dungapuri hilts which you had referred to and I have at last found a sword with a blade having the same shape and disposition of fullers as on the Tulwar
Unfortunately I do not have the dimensions of this sword which is a circa 1730 / 1740 Austrian sabre for Grenadiers of Cuirassier and Dragoon regiments This is not to far away from your thoughts about likening it to possibly an 18th century Hungarian Hussar`s sabre, both part of the Hapsburg empire and may well have been used by other countries within it. Having said that I am still unaware of the name of the Company, probably German, but not definite, who made them. In case you are interested the title of the book that I found this in is " The Encyclopedia of European Historical Weapons" by Dr Vladimir Dolinek and Dr Jan Durdik published in GB in 1993.
Thank you again for your input which is always much appreciated.
Regards
Miguel
Miguel

Hi Miguel,
My entries on these interesting topics you are posting are entirely my pleasure and I appreciate the queries and opportunity to revisit notes and references to continue learning from them.

I agree the sheer heft of this blade well corresponds to the sabres of the Hapsburgs and Eastern Europe. These often heavily radiused chopping type blades dramatically influenced European cavalry forms from the second half of the 18th century along with their fashion and tactics in the 'hussar' type flair. That these type of sabre blades became enormously popular in India came through the British cavalry units there, in fact the M1796 light cavalry sabre which was fashioned after these Austrian and Hungarian style sabres remained in use through the 19th century in India.

If there are no markings on the blade, while it may be German made, many blades from Austria also came from locations in Styria. These however were usually marked.

I think the 'Dungarpuri' designator for this style of hilt probably came from G,N.Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour" 1980, Lahore), in which the author boldly but arbitrarily classified numbers of hilts on tulwars etc. While we may regard these as benchmarks drawn most likely from certain consistency or provenances (he was a museum official), it is most difficult to regionally assign classifications as most of these styles occurred outside any rigidly observed boundaries.
The primary region for the majority of hilt styles is the huge geographic area of Rajasthan, and most of the regional designators given are places found in Rajasthan, including Dungapur.

The 'stem' feature projecting from the pommel of the hilt feature of course is one which is most often associated with Rajputs, and the 'khanda' (or firangi). In most cases these are elongated, but this interesting much shorter and actually perpendicularly configured form would suggest more a vestigial presence than that of extension for hand grip feature of the khanda basket hilt forms.

I commend your notice of the varying designs found in the inner bowl of the pommel surround, which are often overlooked in photos and discussion of examples. This aspect of identifying features on tulwars was greatly emphasized by our own Jens Nordlund many years ago, and its importance much realized accordingly.

We are anxiously awaiting an important work on Indian weapons by Dr. Robert Elgood, which I understand will include a great deal of material on tulwars and classifications of them. While Dr.Pant's venerable work has been most useful all these years, we look forward to the new work in this book which will augment and advance our knowledge on these swords.

All best regards
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Sketches of Tulvar Hilts ...

[Miguel]

Sketches of Tulvar Hilts ...

Cheers Ibrahiim