Yet another Tulwar

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2016, 02:53 AM

I am glad I could be of help Miguel. While I am by far no expert on these or any other weapon, I have learned a great deal on tulwars and Indian arms from Jens and others. My goal is always to share as much as I can and to keep learning.......together.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 20th July 2016, 08:05 AM

Tulvar; Invariably Indian / Moghul paintings illustrate (even in their two dimensional form) someone famous wearing or swinging a Tulvar at someone else doing the same! It is therefor Iconic as a weapon and derivatives of the basic form are legion in Indian sword styles. The weapon appears to originate from Turko/ Mongol design and includes replaced blades verging on Mediaeval European and later European blades. Dozens of different hilts appear and some with long spikes in a variety of heavy and light sabre styles...and interestingly the rather cramped hand hold can be supplemented by looping the index finger around the guard...allowing more power and flexibility in the hold.
Note the knuckle guard form.

Miguel · 20th July 2016, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Tulvar; Invariably Indian / Moghul paintings illustrate (even in their two dimensional form) someone famous wearing or swinging a Tulvar at someone else doing the same! It is therefor Iconic as a weapon and derivatives of the basic form are legion in Indian sword styles. The weapon appears to originate from Turko/ Mongol design and includes replaced blades verging on Mediaeval European and later European blades. Dozens of different hilts appear and some with long spikes in a variety of heavy and light sabre styles...and interestingly the rather cramped hand hold can be supplemented by looping the index finger around the guard...allowing more power and flexibility in the hold.
Note the knuckle guard form.

Many thanks Abrahiim, great pics, they really emphasize the diversity of the many hilt designs. Many thanks
Regards
Miguel

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st July 2016, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Many thanks Abrahiim, great pics, they really emphasize the diversity of the many hilt designs. Many thanks
Regards
Miguel

I note that these swords were also made by English sword makers...

FOR INTEREST...SEE http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ILKINSON+SWORD

Could the project sword at #1 be English?

Miguel · 22nd July 2016, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I note that these swords were also made by English sword makers...

FOR INTEREST...SEE http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ILKINSON+SWORD

Could the project sword at #1 be English?

Hello Ibrahiim,
Interesting thought. I don't think the blade is English due to its design it looks more European to me. From the Wilkinson info the blades they supplied were also shorter than the one on my sword but I am not that knowledgeable. The English swords I have and the ones I have seen are of a different design actually in my opinion not as good.
Regards
Miguel

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2016, 10:26 PM

Hi Miguel,
First of all, thank you for the kind words in your earlier post, I am most grateful.

To clarify, in the discussion linked, the Wilkinson Sword Co. among others were suppliers to the British colonies in India, most of the others were either subordinate to or contracted to Wilkinson.
The design of the tulwar (Indo-Persian) hilt was of course a development from iconographic Indian hilt forms actually from more ancient times, which evolved at a yet distinctly undetermined period. The progression was quite subtle, and reached its more familiar form probably around the 16th c.

In the British Raj, there were an ever increasing number of native units in the British army, and supplying them was a huge undertaking. By the second half of the 19th century, while variations of regulation British military patterns prevailed, many units were allowed to choose their own favored types. Naturally the 'tulwar' was highly selected.

Actually Wilkinson and the Mole company, a subcontractor, produced both British patterns as well as the Indian style tulwar hilts. I once had brass tulwar hilted examples marked MOLE.

With the military style sabres produced (known as the Paget style) these had blades in either 31" or 33" lengths. I cannot recall details but these were apportioned to different districts, Bengal and Madras. There were numbers of other variations in Wilkinson records.

Meanwhile, in earlier East India Company times (pre 1857), there are numbers of Indian hilted (both khanda and tulwar) swords mounted with British military blades. These are hybrids from either captured or discarded British swords and in some cases the whims of flamboyant British officers in some of these native units, with any number of probabilities.
These practices and situations prevailed throughout the Raj.

In most cases the British blades are marked, while various European imported blades may or may not be marked. Solingen in the later years of the century had numbers of producers who produced volumes of 'blanks' for export to various markets.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd July 2016, 02:50 PM

Please see charts...One is a Mantons whilst Wilkinsons is the other focusing on blades to Ethiopia...Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20288;

Miguel · 24th July 2016, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Miguel,
First of all, thank you for the kind words in your earlier post, I am most grateful.

To clarify, in the discussion linked, the Wilkinson Sword Co. among others were suppliers to the British colonies in India, most of the others were either subordinate to or contracted to Wilkinson.
The design of the tulwar (Indo-Persian) hilt was of course a development from iconographic Indian hilt forms actually from more ancient times, which evolved at a yet distinctly undetermined period. The progression was quite subtle, and reached its more familiar form probably around the 16th c.

In the British Raj, there were an ever increasing number of native units in the British army, and supplying them was a huge undertaking. By the second half of the 19th century, while variations of regulation British military patterns prevailed, many units were allowed to choose their own favored types. Naturally the 'tulwar' was highly selected.

Actually Wilkinson and the Mole company, a subcontractor, produced both British patterns as well as the Indian style tulwar hilts. I once had brass tulwar hilted examples marked MOLE.

With the military style sabres produced (known as the Paget style) these had blades in either 31" or 33" lengths. I cannot recall details but these were apportioned to different districts, Bengal and Madras. There were numbers of other variations in Wilkinson records.

Meanwhile, in earlier East India Company times (pre 1857), there are numbers of Indian hilted (both khanda and tulwar) swords mounted with British military blades. These are hybrids from either captured or discarded British swords and in some cases the whims of flamboyant British officers in some of these native units, with any number of probabilities.
These practices and situations prevailed throughout the Raj.

In most cases the British blades are marked, while various European imported blades may or may not be marked. Solingen in the later years of the century had numbers of producers who produced volumes of 'blanks' for export to various markets.

Hello Jim,

Thank you for the very interesting info on the Wilkinson Sword Co but I think your first reply had the answers. Ibrahim provide a link showing Dungapuri hilts which you had referred to and I have at last found a sword with a blade having the same shape and disposition of fullers as on the Tulwar

Unfortunately I do not have the dimensions of this sword which is a circa 1730 / 1740 Austrian sabre for Grenadiers of Cuirassier and Dragoon regiments This is not to far away from your thoughts about likening it to possibly an 18th century Hungarian Hussar`s sabre, both part of the Hapsburg empire and may well have been used by other countries within it. Having said that I am still unaware of the name of the Company, probably German, but not definite, who made them. In case you are interested the title of the book that I found this in is " The Encyclopedia of European Historical Weapons" by Dr Vladimir Dolinek and Dr Jan Durdik published in GB in 1993.
Thank you again for your input which is always much appreciated.
Regards
Miguel
Miguel

Miguel · 20th July 2016, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am glad I could be of help Miguel. While I am by far no expert on these or any other weapon, I have learned a great deal on tulwars and Indian arms from Jens and others. My goal is always to share as much as I can and to keep learning.......together.

Jim, I am sure it is much appreciated by other members. I, for one, am certainly appreciative of you sharing your knowledge and for the time you devote to it. Many thanks.
Regards
Miguel

20th July 2016, 08:05 AM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Tulvar; Invariably Indian / Moghul paintings illustrate (even in their two dimensional form) someone famous wearing or swinging a Tulvar at someone else doing the same! It is therefor Iconic as a weapon and derivatives of the basic form are legion in Indian sword styles. The weapon appears to originate from Turko/ Mongol design and includes replaced blades verging on Mediaeval European and later European blades. Dozens of different hilts appear and some with long spikes in a variety of heavy and light sabre styles...and interestingly the rather cramped hand hold can be supplemented by looping the index finger around the guard...allowing more power and flexibility in the hold. Note the knuckle guard form. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 20th July 2016 at 09:08 AM.

23rd July 2016, 02:50 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Please see charts...One is a Mantons whilst Wilkinsons is the other focusing on blades to Ethiopia...Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20288; Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 23rd July 2016 at 03:05 PM.

20th July 2016, 02:53 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	I am glad I could be of help Miguel. While I am by far no expert on these or any other weapon, I have learned a great deal on tulwars and Indian arms from Jens and others. My goal is always to share as much as I can and to keep learning.......together.

22nd July 2016, 10:26 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Hi Miguel, First of all, thank you for the kind words in your earlier post, I am most grateful. To clarify, in the discussion linked, the Wilkinson Sword Co. among others were suppliers to the British colonies in India, most of the others were either subordinate to or contracted to Wilkinson. The design of the tulwar (Indo-Persian) hilt was of course a development from iconographic Indian hilt forms actually from more ancient times, which evolved at a yet distinctly undetermined period. The progression was quite subtle, and reached its more familiar form probably around the 16th c. In the British Raj, there were an ever increasing number of native units in the British army, and supplying them was a huge undertaking. By the second half of the 19th century, while variations of regulation British military patterns prevailed, many units were allowed to choose their own favored types. Naturally the 'tulwar' was highly selected. Actually Wilkinson and the Mole company, a subcontractor, produced both British patterns as well as the Indian style tulwar hilts. I once had brass tulwar hilted examples marked MOLE. With the military style sabres produced (known as the Paget style) these had blades in either 31" or 33" lengths. I cannot recall details but these were apportioned to different districts, Bengal and Madras. There were numbers of other variations in Wilkinson records. Meanwhile, in earlier East India Company times (pre 1857), there are numbers of Indian hilted (both khanda and tulwar) swords mounted with British military blades. These are hybrids from either captured or discarded British swords and in some cases the whims of flamboyant British officers in some of these native units, with any number of probabilities. These practices and situations prevailed throughout the Raj. In most cases the British blades are marked, while various European imported blades may or may not be marked. Solingen in the later years of the century had numbers of producers who produced volumes of 'blanks' for export to various markets.