Yet another Tulwar

Miguel · 18th July 2016, 07:33 PM

Since my last reply I have spent hours searching for a sword with the same hilt without success. Reading all the past threads has proved to be of no avail and I have assumed rightly or wrongly that the lack of response from the more knowledgeable members is that they have said it all on past threads. Following Ariels tip about the Deccan I do believe that this is the most likely place of origin although cannot prove it. Both the Rajputs and Marathas had swords with a bent stem coming out of the pommel disc similar to the one on my sword but not a perfect match. As the hilt is Indo Muslim I lean towards Rajput as I don't think that the Marathas would use this hilt being Hindu, just a feeling no proof. My task is obviously unachievable due to the lack of information available to identify Tulwar hilt designs and the fact that the Indo Muslim hilt form was spread over most of India. I will catalogue it as Indian, Cavalry, sword with Indo Muslim Tulwar hilt fitted with curved single edged blade of European manufacture possibly Clauberg or Indian copy My thanks again to Ariel and A.Anakkas for their replies.
Regards
Miguel

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2016, 04:08 AM

Miguel,
I wanted to thank you for mentioning my name in your query, and my apologies for not responding sooner.
This is a very attractive hilt which in its subtle manner seems to be as noted that termed as Indo-Persian, but as well known, efforts to delineate these regionally are often arbitrarily applied and often speculative.

I think Ainakkas has well noted that this blade seems to be European, and most probably German. The Clauberg denominator is plausible but that was just one firm of many supplying various markets from Solingen. The extremely heavy and radiused hatchet type blade suggests the hussar sabres of early 19th c.
I would note here that there were German mercenaries in India, primarily in Deccan with the Nizam of Hyderabad in one case. Like a number of colonial cases these were often termed 'Alemani' swords.

It was from Elgood that a Deccani tegha with similar hilt having the curved stem or spike from the pommel was seen, and the feature was I believe noted to derive from 17th century. Similar 'Indo Persian' type hilts are seen in Pant ("Indian Arms and Armour", 1980, p.108) as 'Dungarpuri' which is an area in Rajasthan and a 17th c affectation 'having a curved spike instead of a tang button'.
Pant notes as his reference, a Marathi source ,"Shree Pratap Shastragava", translated by V.C.Tavkar, Baroda, 1948 (p.98, illustr. 52).

While the curved spike is not perpendicular as this one, it is notably similar.

The term 'Deccani' is a broad one, and can be perceived from a geographic term, geo-political, ethnographic and historic as many important dynasties are regarded as Deccani.

Rajasthan is typically of course outside the Deccani designator in most cases, but through connections in other areas may be somewhat aligned.

The exact origins of the so called Indo-Persian hilt remain unclear, however the apparent development from early Indian hilts seen iconographically cannot be overlooked. The hybridization of khanda hilt features and those on tulwars is well established.

I would presume this to likely be a Rajput sword as you have already determined. The Indo-Persian hilt was used not only by Mughals, but Rajputs, Sikhs as for the broader classifications.
It seems to be a mid to latter 18th c hilt with blade of similar period, and possibly matched with this blade possibly early 19th.

I believe Robert Elgood will have his new book out by winter, which will be 2 volumes which I understand will include profound attention to tulwars and more on understanding the dilemmas of their classifications .

With best regards
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th July 2016, 05:09 AM

NOTE THE SPIKES CONTAINED IN THE WALLACE COLLECTION AT http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=WALLACE
Whilst not identical you can see the development...

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2016, 07:36 PM

Thank you Ibrahiim, that link offers some impressive examples!

Regarding the 'spike' or 'stem' which is one of the predominant hilt elements here, it seems that while on the firangi, it is often noted that its purpose was to allow the swordsman to use this in a two handed blow.
Though these were typically substantial enough to plausibly render that intent , as usual with many of the characteristic features of certain Indian weapons the debates perpetually continue.

In this case, the perpendicular cant of this example suggests a more vestigial or symbolic purpose .

Miguel, thank you for showing the interior of the pommel disc, which reveals the distinctive surround that often carries subtle symbolic character, particularly in Rajput tulwar examples. These are often thought to potentially reflect connections to the various Rajput clan systems.
The interesting chevron style motif linear on the knucklebow also corresponds to certain features and styles to the north.

Miguel · 19th July 2016, 08:23 PM

Jim, thank you very much for your very informative reply which because of the clear way you put things has cleared a lot of the confusion I had in my mind from the hours spent trying to discover the identity of this sword, your knowledge never ceases to amaze me, brilliant. I look forward to the books you mention which, hopefully, will clarify more accurately the origins and design of these Tulwar hilt types as from reading the past threads it seemed to crop up fairly regularly, I also hope that they will be out for Christmas so that I can get a present I really want

Thanks, Ibrahiim for your pointer to the Wallace collection, I have seen it and can highly recommend it for both Indian and European weapons.
Regards
Miguel

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2016, 01:53 AM

I am glad I could be of help Miguel. While I am by far no expert on these or any other weapon, I have learned a great deal on tulwars and Indian arms from Jens and others. My goal is always to share as much as I can and to keep learning.......together.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 20th July 2016, 07:05 AM

Tulvar; Invariably Indian / Moghul paintings illustrate (even in their two dimensional form) someone famous wearing or swinging a Tulvar at someone else doing the same! It is therefor Iconic as a weapon and derivatives of the basic form are legion in Indian sword styles. The weapon appears to originate from Turko/ Mongol design and includes replaced blades verging on Mediaeval European and later European blades. Dozens of different hilts appear and some with long spikes in a variety of heavy and light sabre styles...and interestingly the rather cramped hand hold can be supplemented by looping the index finger around the guard...allowing more power and flexibility in the hold.
Note the knuckle guard form.

Miguel · 20th July 2016, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am glad I could be of help Miguel. While I am by far no expert on these or any other weapon, I have learned a great deal on tulwars and Indian arms from Jens and others. My goal is always to share as much as I can and to keep learning.......together.

Jim, I am sure it is much appreciated by other members. I, for one, am certainly appreciative of you sharing your knowledge and for the time you devote to it. Many thanks.
Regards
Miguel

20th July 2016, 07:05 AM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Tulvar; Invariably Indian / Moghul paintings illustrate (even in their two dimensional form) someone famous wearing or swinging a Tulvar at someone else doing the same! It is therefor Iconic as a weapon and derivatives of the basic form are legion in Indian sword styles. The weapon appears to originate from Turko/ Mongol design and includes replaced blades verging on Mediaeval European and later European blades. Dozens of different hilts appear and some with long spikes in a variety of heavy and light sabre styles...and interestingly the rather cramped hand hold can be supplemented by looping the index finger around the guard...allowing more power and flexibility in the hold. Note the knuckle guard form. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 20th July 2016 at 08:08 AM.

18th July 2016, 07:33 PM	#1
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Since my last reply I have spent hours searching for a sword with the same hilt without success. Reading all the past threads has proved to be of no avail and I have assumed rightly or wrongly that the lack of response from the more knowledgeable members is that they have said it all on past threads. Following Ariels tip about the Deccan I do believe that this is the most likely place of origin although cannot prove it. Both the Rajputs and Marathas had swords with a bent stem coming out of the pommel disc similar to the one on my sword but not a perfect match. As the hilt is Indo Muslim I lean towards Rajput as I don't think that the Marathas would use this hilt being Hindu, just a feeling no proof. My task is obviously unachievable due to the lack of information available to identify Tulwar hilt designs and the fact that the Indo Muslim hilt form was spread over most of India. I will catalogue it as Indian, Cavalry, sword with Indo Muslim Tulwar hilt fitted with curved single edged blade of European manufacture possibly Clauberg or Indian copy My thanks again to Ariel and A.Anakkas for their replies. Regards Miguel

19th July 2016, 04:08 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Miguel, I wanted to thank you for mentioning my name in your query, and my apologies for not responding sooner. This is a very attractive hilt which in its subtle manner seems to be as noted that termed as Indo-Persian, but as well known, efforts to delineate these regionally are often arbitrarily applied and often speculative. I think Ainakkas has well noted that this blade seems to be European, and most probably German. The Clauberg denominator is plausible but that was just one firm of many supplying various markets from Solingen. The extremely heavy and radiused hatchet type blade suggests the hussar sabres of early 19th c. I would note here that there were German mercenaries in India, primarily in Deccan with the Nizam of Hyderabad in one case. Like a number of colonial cases these were often termed 'Alemani' swords. It was from Elgood that a Deccani tegha with similar hilt having the curved stem or spike from the pommel was seen, and the feature was I believe noted to derive from 17th century. Similar 'Indo Persian' type hilts are seen in Pant ("Indian Arms and Armour", 1980, p.108) as 'Dungarpuri' which is an area in Rajasthan and a 17th c affectation 'having a curved spike instead of a tang button'. Pant notes as his reference, a Marathi source ,"Shree Pratap Shastragava", translated by V.C.Tavkar, Baroda, 1948 (p.98, illustr. 52). While the curved spike is not perpendicular as this one, it is notably similar. The term 'Deccani' is a broad one, and can be perceived from a geographic term, geo-political, ethnographic and historic as many important dynasties are regarded as Deccani. Rajasthan is typically of course outside the Deccani designator in most cases, but through connections in other areas may be somewhat aligned. The exact origins of the so called Indo-Persian hilt remain unclear, however the apparent development from early Indian hilts seen iconographically cannot be overlooked. The hybridization of khanda hilt features and those on tulwars is well established. I would presume this to likely be a Rajput sword as you have already determined. The Indo-Persian hilt was used not only by Mughals, but Rajputs, Sikhs as for the broader classifications. It seems to be a mid to latter 18th c hilt with blade of similar period, and possibly matched with this blade possibly early 19th. I believe Robert Elgood will have his new book out by winter, which will be 2 volumes which I understand will include profound attention to tulwars and more on understanding the dilemmas of their classifications . With best regards Jim

19th July 2016, 05:09 AM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	NOTE THE SPIKES CONTAINED IN THE WALLACE COLLECTION AT http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=WALLACE Whilst not identical you can see the development...

19th July 2016, 07:36 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Thank you Ibrahiim, that link offers some impressive examples! Regarding the 'spike' or 'stem' which is one of the predominant hilt elements here, it seems that while on the firangi, it is often noted that its purpose was to allow the swordsman to use this in a two handed blow. Though these were typically substantial enough to plausibly render that intent , as usual with many of the characteristic features of certain Indian weapons the debates perpetually continue. In this case, the perpendicular cant of this example suggests a more vestigial or symbolic purpose . Miguel, thank you for showing the interior of the pommel disc, which reveals the distinctive surround that often carries subtle symbolic character, particularly in Rajput tulwar examples. These are often thought to potentially reflect connections to the various Rajput clan systems. The interesting chevron style motif linear on the knucklebow also corresponds to certain features and styles to the north.

19th July 2016, 08:23 PM	#5
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Jim, thank you very much for your very informative reply which because of the clear way you put things has cleared a lot of the confusion I had in my mind from the hours spent trying to discover the identity of this sword, your knowledge never ceases to amaze me, brilliant. I look forward to the books you mention which, hopefully, will clarify more accurately the origins and design of these Tulwar hilt types as from reading the past threads it seemed to crop up fairly regularly, I also hope that they will be out for Christmas so that I can get a present I really want Thanks, Ibrahiim for your pointer to the Wallace collection, I have seen it and can highly recommend it for both Indian and European weapons. Regards Miguel

20th July 2016, 01:53 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	I am glad I could be of help Miguel. While I am by far no expert on these or any other weapon, I have learned a great deal on tulwars and Indian arms from Jens and others. My goal is always to share as much as I can and to keep learning.......together.