Yet another Tulwar

A.alnakkas · 14th July 2016, 11:23 PM

Thats quite an attractive tulwar. I do believe that the blade is a clauberg or an immitation of one. Still a lovely example!

ariel · 15th July 2016, 01:21 AM

Simple but very attractive.
I would try to etch the handle: when I enlarge the pic , there is a faint impression it might be wootz.
Crooked baluster on top of the pommel: where did I hear that it might be Deccan?

Miguel · 15th July 2016, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Simple but very attractive.
I would try to etch the handle: when I enlarge the pic , there is a faint impression it might be wootz.
Crooked baluster on top of the pommel: where did I hear that it might be Deccan?

Thanks Ariel you may be right about the hilt, I thought it may be small dots of pitting. Thanks for the Deccan tip I will investigate.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 18th July 2016, 07:33 PM

Since my last reply I have spent hours searching for a sword with the same hilt without success. Reading all the past threads has proved to be of no avail and I have assumed rightly or wrongly that the lack of response from the more knowledgeable members is that they have said it all on past threads. Following Ariels tip about the Deccan I do believe that this is the most likely place of origin although cannot prove it. Both the Rajputs and Marathas had swords with a bent stem coming out of the pommel disc similar to the one on my sword but not a perfect match. As the hilt is Indo Muslim I lean towards Rajput as I don't think that the Marathas would use this hilt being Hindu, just a feeling no proof. My task is obviously unachievable due to the lack of information available to identify Tulwar hilt designs and the fact that the Indo Muslim hilt form was spread over most of India. I will catalogue it as Indian, Cavalry, sword with Indo Muslim Tulwar hilt fitted with curved single edged blade of European manufacture possibly Clauberg or Indian copy My thanks again to Ariel and A.Anakkas for their replies.
Regards
Miguel

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2016, 04:08 AM

Miguel,
I wanted to thank you for mentioning my name in your query, and my apologies for not responding sooner.
This is a very attractive hilt which in its subtle manner seems to be as noted that termed as Indo-Persian, but as well known, efforts to delineate these regionally are often arbitrarily applied and often speculative.

I think Ainakkas has well noted that this blade seems to be European, and most probably German. The Clauberg denominator is plausible but that was just one firm of many supplying various markets from Solingen. The extremely heavy and radiused hatchet type blade suggests the hussar sabres of early 19th c.
I would note here that there were German mercenaries in India, primarily in Deccan with the Nizam of Hyderabad in one case. Like a number of colonial cases these were often termed 'Alemani' swords.

It was from Elgood that a Deccani tegha with similar hilt having the curved stem or spike from the pommel was seen, and the feature was I believe noted to derive from 17th century. Similar 'Indo Persian' type hilts are seen in Pant ("Indian Arms and Armour", 1980, p.108) as 'Dungarpuri' which is an area in Rajasthan and a 17th c affectation 'having a curved spike instead of a tang button'.
Pant notes as his reference, a Marathi source ,"Shree Pratap Shastragava", translated by V.C.Tavkar, Baroda, 1948 (p.98, illustr. 52).

While the curved spike is not perpendicular as this one, it is notably similar.

The term 'Deccani' is a broad one, and can be perceived from a geographic term, geo-political, ethnographic and historic as many important dynasties are regarded as Deccani.

Rajasthan is typically of course outside the Deccani designator in most cases, but through connections in other areas may be somewhat aligned.

The exact origins of the so called Indo-Persian hilt remain unclear, however the apparent development from early Indian hilts seen iconographically cannot be overlooked. The hybridization of khanda hilt features and those on tulwars is well established.

I would presume this to likely be a Rajput sword as you have already determined. The Indo-Persian hilt was used not only by Mughals, but Rajputs, Sikhs as for the broader classifications.
It seems to be a mid to latter 18th c hilt with blade of similar period, and possibly matched with this blade possibly early 19th.

I believe Robert Elgood will have his new book out by winter, which will be 2 volumes which I understand will include profound attention to tulwars and more on understanding the dilemmas of their classifications .

With best regards
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th July 2016, 05:09 AM

NOTE THE SPIKES CONTAINED IN THE WALLACE COLLECTION AT http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=WALLACE
Whilst not identical you can see the development...

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2016, 07:36 PM

Thank you Ibrahiim, that link offers some impressive examples!

Regarding the 'spike' or 'stem' which is one of the predominant hilt elements here, it seems that while on the firangi, it is often noted that its purpose was to allow the swordsman to use this in a two handed blow.
Though these were typically substantial enough to plausibly render that intent , as usual with many of the characteristic features of certain Indian weapons the debates perpetually continue.

In this case, the perpendicular cant of this example suggests a more vestigial or symbolic purpose .

Miguel, thank you for showing the interior of the pommel disc, which reveals the distinctive surround that often carries subtle symbolic character, particularly in Rajput tulwar examples. These are often thought to potentially reflect connections to the various Rajput clan systems.
The interesting chevron style motif linear on the knucklebow also corresponds to certain features and styles to the north.

Miguel · 15th July 2016, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Thats quite an attractive tulwar. I do believe that the blade is a clauberg or an immitation of one. Still a lovely example!

Thank you for your comments. Your observation is interesting but I am unable to agree or disagree as I am not Knowledgeable enough except to say that I have not seen a sword with a Clauberg blade which looks as wide as this one although I can see that some their sabre blades are similarly curved and multi fullered. I am hoping that Jim might offer his thoughts on this sword

Regards
Miguel

14th July 2016, 11:23 PM	#1
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Thats quite an attractive tulwar. I do believe that the blade is a clauberg or an immitation of one. Still a lovely example!

15th July 2016, 01:21 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Simple but very attractive. I would try to etch the handle: when I enlarge the pic , there is a faint impression it might be wootz. Crooked baluster on top of the pommel: where did I hear that it might be Deccan?

18th July 2016, 07:33 PM	#4
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Since my last reply I have spent hours searching for a sword with the same hilt without success. Reading all the past threads has proved to be of no avail and I have assumed rightly or wrongly that the lack of response from the more knowledgeable members is that they have said it all on past threads. Following Ariels tip about the Deccan I do believe that this is the most likely place of origin although cannot prove it. Both the Rajputs and Marathas had swords with a bent stem coming out of the pommel disc similar to the one on my sword but not a perfect match. As the hilt is Indo Muslim I lean towards Rajput as I don't think that the Marathas would use this hilt being Hindu, just a feeling no proof. My task is obviously unachievable due to the lack of information available to identify Tulwar hilt designs and the fact that the Indo Muslim hilt form was spread over most of India. I will catalogue it as Indian, Cavalry, sword with Indo Muslim Tulwar hilt fitted with curved single edged blade of European manufacture possibly Clauberg or Indian copy My thanks again to Ariel and A.Anakkas for their replies. Regards Miguel

19th July 2016, 04:08 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Miguel, I wanted to thank you for mentioning my name in your query, and my apologies for not responding sooner. This is a very attractive hilt which in its subtle manner seems to be as noted that termed as Indo-Persian, but as well known, efforts to delineate these regionally are often arbitrarily applied and often speculative. I think Ainakkas has well noted that this blade seems to be European, and most probably German. The Clauberg denominator is plausible but that was just one firm of many supplying various markets from Solingen. The extremely heavy and radiused hatchet type blade suggests the hussar sabres of early 19th c. I would note here that there were German mercenaries in India, primarily in Deccan with the Nizam of Hyderabad in one case. Like a number of colonial cases these were often termed 'Alemani' swords. It was from Elgood that a Deccani tegha with similar hilt having the curved stem or spike from the pommel was seen, and the feature was I believe noted to derive from 17th century. Similar 'Indo Persian' type hilts are seen in Pant ("Indian Arms and Armour", 1980, p.108) as 'Dungarpuri' which is an area in Rajasthan and a 17th c affectation 'having a curved spike instead of a tang button'. Pant notes as his reference, a Marathi source ,"Shree Pratap Shastragava", translated by V.C.Tavkar, Baroda, 1948 (p.98, illustr. 52). While the curved spike is not perpendicular as this one, it is notably similar. The term 'Deccani' is a broad one, and can be perceived from a geographic term, geo-political, ethnographic and historic as many important dynasties are regarded as Deccani. Rajasthan is typically of course outside the Deccani designator in most cases, but through connections in other areas may be somewhat aligned. The exact origins of the so called Indo-Persian hilt remain unclear, however the apparent development from early Indian hilts seen iconographically cannot be overlooked. The hybridization of khanda hilt features and those on tulwars is well established. I would presume this to likely be a Rajput sword as you have already determined. The Indo-Persian hilt was used not only by Mughals, but Rajputs, Sikhs as for the broader classifications. It seems to be a mid to latter 18th c hilt with blade of similar period, and possibly matched with this blade possibly early 19th. I believe Robert Elgood will have his new book out by winter, which will be 2 volumes which I understand will include profound attention to tulwars and more on understanding the dilemmas of their classifications . With best regards Jim

19th July 2016, 05:09 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	NOTE THE SPIKES CONTAINED IN THE WALLACE COLLECTION AT http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=WALLACE Whilst not identical you can see the development...

19th July 2016, 07:36 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Thank you Ibrahiim, that link offers some impressive examples! Regarding the 'spike' or 'stem' which is one of the predominant hilt elements here, it seems that while on the firangi, it is often noted that its purpose was to allow the swordsman to use this in a two handed blow. Though these were typically substantial enough to plausibly render that intent , as usual with many of the characteristic features of certain Indian weapons the debates perpetually continue. In this case, the perpendicular cant of this example suggests a more vestigial or symbolic purpose . Miguel, thank you for showing the interior of the pommel disc, which reveals the distinctive surround that often carries subtle symbolic character, particularly in Rajput tulwar examples. These are often thought to potentially reflect connections to the various Rajput clan systems. The interesting chevron style motif linear on the knucklebow also corresponds to certain features and styles to the north.