A Plug Bayonet for comments

fernando · 13th July 2016, 03:01 PM

Thank you for your input, Jim.
First thing is to confess that i don't read any book thoroughly; i page them now an then and consult them when i need ... thus finding new stuff each time i open them.
But trying to link to your notes ...
I would rater put in separate sentences that: A-Plug bayonets in Britain were basicaly used by military. B-Plug bayonets with undulating blades are mostly affected to British typology. One thing does not oblige for the other (syllogism ?)
Agreed that, this type of bayonet, being (only) a military implement for the British, ceased its activity when socket bayonets took its place. Following the same reasoning it is improbable that the example in discussion was brought by the Brits to Portugal as those massive downloads of weapons took place at a much later stage, with a heavy accent in the early 19th centuries for the Peninsular War, when the use of these things in Britain was long gone.
Also agreed that, the plug bayonet followed a more continued path in Spain, having become a traditional resource for hunting muzzle loading escopetas and, as well recorded, later becoming a decoration and ceremonial device; or even to complement the attire of uniforms, like those of Royal Estate gamekeepers we see caring for King Alfonso III (Plug Bayonet page 143), by the time shot guns had no need for bayonet emergency support. But i would not regard the specimen in discussion as being a ceremonial adornment; those were more worked up and decorated and less weapon looking, as we may see several around from Toledo output.
So the riddle remains; a ferrule of Germanic invention, a blade popular for the British and a hilt that nothing prevents to be Spanish ... or Portuguese; like this other example from my tiny collection.
So, in absence of inequivocal evidence, i (sentimentaly) elect it as a setup of Portuguese initiative ... if you don't mind, of course

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Jim McDougall · 13th July 2016, 04:24 PM

I rest my case Fernando! Your detailed and itemized assessments reveal the depth of the knowledge you have absorbed on these topics through your consultations of these references. I know that I am also very much a 'browser' rather than reader.

I would note here that your 'sentimentality' in estimating the origin of this bayonet is probably well placed, even without distinct or specific evidence.
In my view, subjective observations and are profoundly important in the absence of more definitive evidence, especially when rendered by those with profound experience and tenure in a certain field.

While my suggestions toward possible ceremonial or Masonic connections is admittedly tenuous, it was noted as an interesting possibility. However I am inclined to agree more with your well reasoned and explained thoughts.
There is a lot to be said for 'sentimentality', which I think in situations forensically and investigatively, is referred to as a 'gut' feeling

Good stuff Fernando!

fernando · 13th July 2016, 06:04 PM

Thank you Jim but, you know, esoterism is not my preferred beach

. And when i mention sentimentalism, i am admiting that i am only pulling the ball towards my team. I have no solid base to form an honest feeling.

13th July 2016, 03:01 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for your input, Jim. First thing is to confess that i don't read any book thoroughly; i page them now an then and consult them when i need ... thus finding new stuff each time i open them. But trying to link to your notes ... I would rater put in separate sentences that: A-Plug bayonets in Britain were basicaly used by military. B-Plug bayonets with undulating blades are mostly affected to British typology. One thing does not oblige for the other (syllogism ?) Agreed that, this type of bayonet, being (only) a military implement for the British, ceased its activity when socket bayonets took its place. Following the same reasoning it is improbable that the example in discussion was brought by the Brits to Portugal as those massive downloads of weapons took place at a much later stage, with a heavy accent in the early 19th centuries for the Peninsular War, when the use of these things in Britain was long gone. Also agreed that, the plug bayonet followed a more continued path in Spain, having become a traditional resource for hunting muzzle loading escopetas and, as well recorded, later becoming a decoration and ceremonial device; or even to complement the attire of uniforms, like those of Royal Estate gamekeepers we see caring for King Alfonso III (Plug Bayonet page 143), by the time shot guns had no need for bayonet emergency support. But i would not regard the specimen in discussion as being a ceremonial adornment; those were more worked up and decorated and less weapon looking, as we may see several around from Toledo output. So the riddle remains; a ferrule of Germanic invention, a blade popular for the British and a hilt that nothing prevents to be Spanish ... or Portuguese; like this other example from my tiny collection. So, in absence of inequivocal evidence, i (sentimentaly) elect it as a setup of Portuguese initiative ... if you don't mind, of course . . Attached Images

13th July 2016, 04:24 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,457	I rest my case Fernando! Your detailed and itemized assessments reveal the depth of the knowledge you have absorbed on these topics through your consultations of these references. I know that I am also very much a 'browser' rather than reader. I would note here that your 'sentimentality' in estimating the origin of this bayonet is probably well placed, even without distinct or specific evidence. In my view, subjective observations and are profoundly important in the absence of more definitive evidence, especially when rendered by those with profound experience and tenure in a certain field. While my suggestions toward possible ceremonial or Masonic connections is admittedly tenuous, it was noted as an interesting possibility. However I am inclined to agree more with your well reasoned and explained thoughts. There is a lot to be said for 'sentimentality', which I think in situations forensically and investigatively, is referred to as a 'gut' feeling Good stuff Fernando!

13th July 2016, 06:04 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Jim but, you know, esoterism is not my preferred beach . And when i mention sentimentalism, i am admiting that i am only pulling the ball towards my team. I have no solid base to form an honest feeling.