Indo-Persian sword with Wootz blade and parrot hilt

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th July 2016, 09:46 AM

I note Czernys call it a rare sabre...I sympathize with their inability to find the exact name...It is so similar to the design of Pesh Kabz...and in fact also on some Persian Kard... In particular the throat design...and so similar to the Yatagan... (I note vague similarities to the decorative throat on Pihae Keata but only faintly similar...) Again I urge fusing the two threads noted earlier.

mariusgmioc · 13th July 2016, 11:20 AM

Have no idea what it is, nor where exactly does it come from but if it is wootz, it definitely is antique!

Moreover, Indian blades display probably the widest array of shapes of all blades and I'm not surprised this shape to be one of them as the Indians seem to fancy recurved blades a lot (as seen in Khnajar, Khanjarli, Pesh-kabz, Bichwa, Soussun Pata, etc.).

So wootz and recurved blade, typical Indian guard, clearly point India to me.

Where exactly in India?! Well... that's a completely different story. Good luck with it!

kronckew · 13th July 2016, 12:33 PM

the hilt reminds me of mine: appears to have a trade blade & was discussed on this forum as possibly so. indian tho nrth was also mentioned. this thread opens more possibilities.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 14th July 2016, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the hilt reminds me of mine: appears to have a trade blade & was discussed on this forum as possibly so. indian tho nrth was also mentioned. this thread opens more possibilities.

The weapon you show is clearly the same style...same family as that being discussed...

mariusgmioc · 14th July 2016, 12:12 PM

Upon further consideration, I came to the conclusion that it shows the characteristics of a Deccan Bichwa... jut a bigger one.

So I would tend to lean towards Deccan origin.

But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?!

I noticed it has somehow became a fad calling all Indian or Persian weapons "Indo-Persian" even when is as clear as daylight they are either Indian or Persian.

Roland_M · 14th July 2016, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?!

""Indo-Persian culture" refers to those Persian aspects that have been integrated into or absorbed into the cultures of the Indian Subcontinent (hence the prefix "Indo"), and in particular, into North India, and modern-day Pakistan."

If someone calls a Persian shamshir with the typical downward curved Persian hilt "Indo-Persian" it's simply wrong.

As I mentioned before, Indians often copied the most successfull patterns from other countries.

Roland

ariel · 14th July 2016, 01:33 PM

In these 2 threads we have stumbled upon a yet undescribed pattern of a long-bladed slashing weapon. I would intuitively place it in North India, but may be wrong. It's age and name are unknown.

Sounds like a fertile area for research:-)))

estcrh · 15th July 2016, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

If someone calls a Persian shamshir with the typical downward curved Persian hilt "Indo-Persian" it's simply wrong.

Roland, it is not "wrong" at all, you have your particular version of "Indo-Persian" but it is also used in other contexts. Dealers and collectors often use "Indo-Persian as a way to group together items from various cultures that are in close proximity to each other, the same way "European" cobbles together many different counties and regions. An "Indo-Persian" whatever is not much different than a "European" whatever. Umbrella terms help people find and locate items online, if a someone searches for "Indo-Persian" online it is much easier than searching for "Persian", "Indian", "Ottoman", "Sryrian" etc.

Indo-Persian is also the standard fall back when you do not know the specific origin of an item but you do know it from India, Persia, Syria, Ottoman etc.

kai · 15th July 2016, 04:31 AM

Hello Marius,

Quote:

Upon further consideration, I came to the conclusion that it shows the characteristics of a Deccan Bichwa... jut a bigger one.

So I would tend to lean towards Deccan origin.

Can you elaborate and show pics to clarify, please?

Quote:

But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?!

I fully agree and can relate to your pain.

Note that I started this thread 11 years ago and I guess this was a pre-emptive attempt to weasel out in case my attribution would got challenged by specialists...

I'd love a mod to change the title to "Indian ..." for better reference and searching, pretty please!

Regards,
Kai

mariusgmioc · 15th July 2016, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Marius,

Can you elaborate and show pics to clarify, please?

Kai

Hello Kai,

Please just Google images of "bichwa dagger" and I'm sure you'll find some examples very similar to your sword.

Also keep in mind that normal Bichwa si much smaller and designed mainly for reverse grip stabbing, hence the symetrical armatures fixing the blade to the hilt. However, your sword is too big to be used in the reverse grip, and since it has to be used with forward grip and also for slashing, it needs to have the armatures enforced towards the spine of the blade (like the ottoman Yataghans).

But just keep it in mind that this is just a hunch and by no means an irrefutable fact. Yet, it may give us a good direction for further enquiry.

Regards,

Marius

13th July 2016, 09:46 AM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I note Czernys call it a rare sabre...I sympathize with their inability to find the exact name...It is so similar to the design of Pesh Kabz...and in fact also on some Persian Kard... In particular the throat design...and so similar to the Yatagan... (I note vague similarities to the decorative throat on Pihae Keata but only faintly similar...) Again I urge fusing the two threads noted earlier. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 13th July 2016 at 10:17 AM.

13th July 2016, 11:20 AM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,912	S Have no idea what it is, nor where exactly does it come from but if it is wootz, it definitely is antique! Moreover, Indian blades display probably the widest array of shapes of all blades and I'm not surprised this shape to be one of them as the Indians seem to fancy recurved blades a lot (as seen in Khnajar, Khanjarli, Pesh-kabz, Bichwa, Soussun Pata, etc.). So wootz and recurved blade, typical Indian guard, clearly point India to me. Where exactly in India?! Well... that's a completely different story. Good luck with it! Last edited by mariusgmioc; 13th July 2016 at 04:08 PM.

13th July 2016, 12:33 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	the hilt reminds me of mine: appears to have a trade blade & was discussed on this forum as possibly so. indian tho nrth was also mentioned. this thread opens more possibilities. Attached Images

14th July 2016, 12:12 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,912	Upon further consideration, I came to the conclusion that it shows the characteristics of a Deccan Bichwa... jut a bigger one. So I would tend to lean towards Deccan origin. But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?! I noticed it has somehow became a fad calling all Indian or Persian weapons "Indo-Persian" even when is as clear as daylight they are either Indian or Persian.

14th July 2016, 01:33 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In these 2 threads we have stumbled upon a yet undescribed pattern of a long-bladed slashing weapon. I would intuitively place it in North India, but may be wrong. It's age and name are unknown. Sounds like a fertile area for research:-)))