Mr. Oakeshott's Sword

Ed · 11th July 2016, 05:05 PM

If in early post medieval Europe, a certain thing or object was common enough to become "popularized" in manuscripts, for how many years had these objects in question been circulating?

The point is that appearance in a manuscript (or in art generally) is nothing more than a terminus ante quem and might well be associated with something that had been in existence for many years prior.

fernando · 11th July 2016, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed

If in early post medieval Europe, a certain thing or object was common enough to become "popularized" in manuscripts, for how many years had these objects in question been circulating?

The point is that appearance in a manuscript (or in art generally) is nothing more than a terminus ante quem and might well be associated with something that had been in existence for many years prior.

Meaning that, the swords depicted by Vasco Gonçalo (circa 1450) in the panels of São Vicente de Fora, being consistent enough to represent real swords, could be examples of models already used in earlier times ?

.

cornelistromp · 11th July 2016, 06:57 PM

Generally speaking, in paintings and etchings from +- 1450 onwards (or so) there is no time difference between the displayed weapons and what was worn at the time of painting.
especially in commissioned orders from individuals, they wanted to be depicted to the latest fashion and with most modern weapons.
if I take the night watch of Rembrandt, every town guard had to pay an amount and the most wealthy guards who paid the most are clearly illustrated in the light on the foreground.with their weapons and beautiful clothes clearly in focus.
(there is one guy on the night watch, who did not want to pay the agreed amount, he is depicted behind a outstretched arm and therefore unrecognizable.)

if I see the landsknecht etchings of Hopfer, Graf, CB, Schoen, Beham, Amman and others, the swords shown, are all from the time of the etching.

when in the 16th century Romans were painted they were often depicted with 16th century weapons. I suspect that old weapons just were not known
by the artist. So he painted weapons from his time, the arms he knew.

@ Fernando the swords in the panels of São Vicente de Fora are mid 15thC, and with the finger guards, the 'pas d'ane, very progressive for the time.
the knights keep their sword visibly pride in their hand as a symbol of beauty, status, dedication and ecclesiastical power and perhaps modernity .

Compare this with how the Dutch guards of the white flag are showing their ultramodern small swords in 1648, painting by JA Rotius

fernando · 11th July 2016, 10:10 PM

Duly noted, Jasper.
Great painting.

Ed · 12th July 2016, 02:55 AM

Sort of. What it means is that something that is depicted must, necessarily, have been around for a while. Might be a year, might be a decade. Appearance in art can only tell you that the thing existed prior to the date of the art.

Of course, if a person appears all decked out in his finery in a portrait you can reasonably assume that what you see is a reasonably accurate representation of that person and his possessions at that time. But that is a trivial observation. What it tells you is that the technology to create the weave of the cloth that he is wearing must have been developed before that date. It tells you that the form of a weapon was around for some period of time prior to the depiction of it in the piece. It tells you nothing about when those things were first developed, only that they were there then. And it certainly does not provide a definitive date of a form of an object, only that that form was in existence when the art was created. That is why you often see the phrase "Before such and such a date" in museum identification cards.

That is what I mean by terminus ante quem:

"Terminus post quem ("limit after which", often abbreviated to TPQ[1]) and terminus ante quem ("limit before which") specify the known limits of dating for events. A terminus post quem is the earliest time the event may have happened, and a terminus ante quem is the latest. An event may well have both a terminus post quem and a terminus ante quem, in which case the limits of the possible range of dates are known at both ends, but many events have just one or the other. Similarly, terminus ad quem ("limit to which") is the latest possible date of a non-punctual event (period, era, etc.), while terminus a quo ("limit from which") is the earliest."

Reventlov · 12th July 2016, 03:52 AM

for comparison with Oakeshott's sword... a very similar pommel appears on an estoc in the Royal Armouries. A.V.B. Norman apparently suggested the pommel is associated.

Their new online collection could use a little fine-tuning... the estoc is probably number IX.54, but the unidentified photo is found only on the page for number IX.993.

https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-31726.html
https://collections.royalarmouries.o...bject-108.html

cornelistromp · 12th July 2016, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed

Sort of. What it means is that something that is depicted must, necessarily, have been around for a while. Might be a year, might be a decade. Appearance in art can only tell you that the thing existed prior to the date of the art.

Of course, if a person appears all decked out in his finery in a portrait you can reasonably assume that what you see is a reasonably accurate representation of that person and his possessions at that time. But that is a trivial observation. What it tells you is that the technology to create the weave of the cloth that he is wearing must have been developed before that date. It tells you that the form of a weapon was around for some period of time prior to the depiction of it in the piece. It tells you nothing about when those things were first developed, only that they were there then. And it certainly does not provide a definitive date of a form of an object, only that that form was in existence when the art was created. That is why you often see the phrase "Before such and such a date" in museum identification cards.

That is what I mean by terminus ante quem:

"Terminus post quem ("limit after which", often abbreviated to TPQ[1]) and terminus ante quem ("limit before which") specify the known limits of dating for events. A terminus post quem is the earliest time the event may have happened, and a terminus ante quem is the latest. An event may well have both a terminus post quem and a terminus ante quem, in which case the limits of the possible range of dates are known at both ends, but many events have just one or the other. Similarly, terminus ad quem ("limit to which") is the latest possible date of a non-punctual event (period, era, etc.), while terminus a quo ("limit from which") is the earliest."

I noticed you copy-paste Wikipedia;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminus_post_quem

This is what Norman published about this, in rapier and the small sword.
it is often argued that painters were very slap dash and unreliable over details. at least as far as sword hilts are concerned, my impression is that the painters whose work I have used here are not unreliable. In any case they are not likely to paint hilts prophetically, showing a type which would be developed a decade later. their work can be used at least as a terminus post quem.

terminus post quem, so the earliest possible date, of course!
can we limit this in time?
I believe that the time between the manufacture of a weapon and a painting where the weapon is depicted can be expressed in years and not in decades.
developments in arms were subjected to fashion and followed in rapid succession.

if we go back to the sword under discussion, your sword, we have to bridge at least a 100 years. based on the Hilt/pommel type in art and the dating of Oakeshott.
this is however, very unlikely.

it is more likely That Oakeshott was 100 years too early with his dating, based on the knowledge in the period of his publishing, the 60'ties.
This assumption is strengthened by the fact that no examples of ring guards can be found from the 15th century, no physical examples and not in art.

furthermore, the period indicated by Norman for this type of hilt-11, 1520-1600, is based on several sources, multiple dated paintings, dated examples in museums and Publications. This gives an accurate picture of the period in which this type of hilt has been used.
This combined with the time period of the pommel, 1470-1585, gives a clue to the dating of the sword under discussion. see #14

best,
Jasper

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2016, 12:31 AM

While not wishing to deviate from the discussion of the posted Oakeshott sword, the subject of artistic license is I think key to the process of historical detection here, and a fascinating subject.
I also appreciate the elucidation on the Latin terms 'terminus ante quem' and 'terminus post quem', which are of course key to the protocols of such detection.

It seems that in earlier times, the idea of antiquated thus traditional or venerated weapons was far subordinate to having the most up to date or fashionable arms of the time. In the case of paintings or works depicting ancient or Biblical themes, the artists often did not have access to the weapons of these times, and simply imagined weapons which suited their themes.
Rembrandt was not only a collector of arms and armor to be used as studies in his works, but of other miscellania for the same purposes.
Most notable instance that comes to mind is his use of an Indonesian keris in the painting of Samson and Delilah, in which the wavy blade profoundly accents the sinister demeanor of the event.

With Norman, whose work using portraiture as a means of identifying the character and styling of hilts, he has achieved a brilliantly reliable accounting of these. As portraits were typically done in real time and with the subject displaying proudly their own personal arms, the noted span on their life establishes a central time frame for the style of hilt seen.

Naturally, a certain weapon might be a heirloom and have earlier provenance, but it would seem that in most cases, the subject would prefer to be wearing the most current and fashionable weapon of the time.

As for the cases of artistic license, it seems these would have been more aligned with paintings of historic, ancient or Biblical events or figures, using either more current weaponry or in some cases more exotic forms to dramatize the rendering.

Getting back to the topic sword being discussed:
I think Jasper has wonderfully explained his reasoning and analysis regarding this and agree with his thoughts on the probable date on this being later than Oakeshott's estimate.

11th July 2016, 06:57 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Generally speaking, in paintings and etchings from +- 1450 onwards (or so) there is no time difference between the displayed weapons and what was worn at the time of painting. especially in commissioned orders from individuals, they wanted to be depicted to the latest fashion and with most modern weapons. if I take the night watch of Rembrandt, every town guard had to pay an amount and the most wealthy guards who paid the most are clearly illustrated in the light on the foreground.with their weapons and beautiful clothes clearly in focus. (there is one guy on the night watch, who did not want to pay the agreed amount, he is depicted behind a outstretched arm and therefore unrecognizable.) if I see the landsknecht etchings of Hopfer, Graf, CB, Schoen, Beham, Amman and others, the swords shown, are all from the time of the etching. when in the 16th century Romans were painted they were often depicted with 16th century weapons. I suspect that old weapons just were not known by the artist. So he painted weapons from his time, the arms he knew. @ Fernando the swords in the panels of São Vicente de Fora are mid 15thC, and with the finger guards, the 'pas d'ane, very progressive for the time. the knights keep their sword visibly pride in their hand as a symbol of beauty, status, dedication and ecclesiastical power and perhaps modernity . Compare this with how the Dutch guards of the white flag are showing their ultramodern small swords in 1648, painting by JA Rotius Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 11th July 2016 at 08:38 PM.

12th July 2016, 03:52 AM	#6
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	for comparison with Oakeshott's sword... a very similar pommel appears on an estoc in the Royal Armouries. A.V.B. Norman apparently suggested the pommel is associated. Their new online collection could use a little fine-tuning... the estoc is probably number IX.54, but the unidentified photo is found only on the page for number IX.993. https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-31726.html https://collections.royalarmouries.o...bject-108.html Attached Images

11th July 2016, 05:05 PM	#1
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 266	If in early post medieval Europe, a certain thing or object was common enough to become "popularized" in manuscripts, for how many years had these objects in question been circulating? The point is that appearance in a manuscript (or in art generally) is nothing more than a terminus ante quem and might well be associated with something that had been in existence for many years prior.

11th July 2016, 10:10 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Duly noted, Jasper. Great painting.

12th July 2016, 02:55 AM	#5
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 266	Sort of. What it means is that something that is depicted must, necessarily, have been around for a while. Might be a year, might be a decade. Appearance in art can only tell you that the thing existed prior to the date of the art. Of course, if a person appears all decked out in his finery in a portrait you can reasonably assume that what you see is a reasonably accurate representation of that person and his possessions at that time. But that is a trivial observation. What it tells you is that the technology to create the weave of the cloth that he is wearing must have been developed before that date. It tells you that the form of a weapon was around for some period of time prior to the depiction of it in the piece. It tells you nothing about when those things were first developed, only that they were there then. And it certainly does not provide a definitive date of a form of an object, only that that form was in existence when the art was created. That is why you often see the phrase "Before such and such a date" in museum identification cards. That is what I mean by terminus ante quem: "Terminus post quem ("limit after which", often abbreviated to TPQ[1]) and terminus ante quem ("limit before which") specify the known limits of dating for events. A terminus post quem is the earliest time the event may have happened, and a terminus ante quem is the latest. An event may well have both a terminus post quem and a terminus ante quem, in which case the limits of the possible range of dates are known at both ends, but many events have just one or the other. Similarly, terminus ad quem ("limit to which") is the latest possible date of a non-punctual event (period, era, etc.), while terminus a quo ("limit from which") is the earliest."

13th July 2016, 12:31 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	While not wishing to deviate from the discussion of the posted Oakeshott sword, the subject of artistic license is I think key to the process of historical detection here, and a fascinating subject. I also appreciate the elucidation on the Latin terms 'terminus ante quem' and 'terminus post quem', which are of course key to the protocols of such detection. It seems that in earlier times, the idea of antiquated thus traditional or venerated weapons was far subordinate to having the most up to date or fashionable arms of the time. In the case of paintings or works depicting ancient or Biblical themes, the artists often did not have access to the weapons of these times, and simply imagined weapons which suited their themes. Rembrandt was not only a collector of arms and armor to be used as studies in his works, but of other miscellania for the same purposes. Most notable instance that comes to mind is his use of an Indonesian keris in the painting of Samson and Delilah, in which the wavy blade profoundly accents the sinister demeanor of the event. With Norman, whose work using portraiture as a means of identifying the character and styling of hilts, he has achieved a brilliantly reliable accounting of these. As portraits were typically done in real time and with the subject displaying proudly their own personal arms, the noted span on their life establishes a central time frame for the style of hilt seen. Naturally, a certain weapon might be a heirloom and have earlier provenance, but it would seem that in most cases, the subject would prefer to be wearing the most current and fashionable weapon of the time. As for the cases of artistic license, it seems these would have been more aligned with paintings of historic, ancient or Biblical events or figures, using either more current weaponry or in some cases more exotic forms to dramatize the rendering. Getting back to the topic sword being discussed: I think Jasper has wonderfully explained his reasoning and analysis regarding this and agree with his thoughts on the probable date on this being later than Oakeshott's estimate.