Mr. Oakeshott's Sword

Lee · 8th July 2016, 02:06 PM

Photo showing the very short 'ricasso' and copper inlaid mark on XVIII.4 in Oakeshott's Records (p. 175):

cornelistromp · 8th July 2016, 08:11 PM

the earliest certain representation of a side ring on the quillons in art are on an engraving of Daniel Hopfer, maybe a type of grosses messer, believed to be Konrad von der Rosen. 1515
(norman, The devopment of the hilt)

My hypothesis is that the side ring is a development of the 8-shaped Katzbalger type of hilt. straight quillons were bent in eight-shaped ring quards; later this ring is closed and straight guillons are added.
I suppose this all hapened in the first quarter of the 16thC.
unfortunately I don't have any example of a 15thc sword with a side ring.

fe see a sword in the painting of St Paul by Pier Francesco Sacchi 1523, it is clear to see that the side rings are still open.

Reventlov · 8th July 2016, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

the earliest certain representation of a side ring on the quillons in art are on an engraving of Daniel Hopfer, maybe a type of grosses messer, believed to be Konrad von der Rosen. 1515

fe see a sword in the painting of St Paul by Pier Francesco Sacchi 1523, it is clear to see that the side rings are still open.

Very interesting, both of these artworks are new to me... thanks for sharing!

Reventlov · 9th July 2016, 12:15 PM

I remembered another possible appearance of a side ring in a drawing by Hans Holbein, c. 1521. Here the ring seems to appear on a different type of hilt from the other examples so far - I've included a photo of a hilt from Hermann Historica which I think is similar to what is shown.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...he_Younger.jpg

Also here is a somewhat mysterious sword with a side-ring in the Hermitage. The museum dates it to 1400-50, but it's not clear what that is based on... a pommel could have been helpful for dating, but I'd still be inclined to a somewhat later dating. No information on provenance on the website, but it probably came to the museum via the Tsarskoye Selo Arsenal in 1919.

http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/p...661316/?lng=en

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th July 2016, 03:54 AM

I had puzzled over side rings and found this useful video which explains it very well Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfQmVQIgwa4 and below I add for interest...others.

Develop your own swordmine...at https://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?q=ring%20hilt%20swords&rs=typed&0=ring|typed&1=hi lt|typed&2=swords|typed

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th July 2016, 06:23 AM

That's not a Hilt... This is a Hilt!!!

kronckew · 11th July 2016, 10:20 AM

side rings? THIS is a ring: recent munitions grade german side sword based in a late 16c design. (i gotta clean off that black stuff)

no fancy schmancy frills and superfluous extra rings on the palm side. finger ring for mingering per the video. note longer 'upper guard branch and curved lower branch to further protect your hand.

8th July 2016, 02:06 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 940	XVIII.4 in Oakeshott's Records (p. 175) Photo showing the very short 'ricasso' and copper inlaid mark on XVIII.4 in Oakeshott's Records (p. 175): Attached Images

8th July 2016, 08:11 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	the earliest certain representation of a side ring on the quillons in art are on an engraving of Daniel Hopfer, maybe a type of grosses messer, believed to be Konrad von der Rosen. 1515 (norman, The devopment of the hilt) My hypothesis is that the side ring is a development of the 8-shaped Katzbalger type of hilt. straight quillons were bent in eight-shaped ring quards; later this ring is closed and straight guillons are added. I suppose this all hapened in the first quarter of the 16thC. unfortunately I don't have any example of a 15thc sword with a side ring. fe see a sword in the painting of St Paul by Pier Francesco Sacchi 1523, it is clear to see that the side rings are still open. Attached Images

9th July 2016, 12:15 PM	#4
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	I remembered another possible appearance of a side ring in a drawing by Hans Holbein, c. 1521. Here the ring seems to appear on a different type of hilt from the other examples so far - I've included a photo of a hilt from Hermann Historica which I think is similar to what is shown. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...he_Younger.jpg Also here is a somewhat mysterious sword with a side-ring in the Hermitage. The museum dates it to 1400-50, but it's not clear what that is based on... a pommel could have been helpful for dating, but I'd still be inclined to a somewhat later dating. No information on provenance on the website, but it probably came to the museum via the Tsarskoye Selo Arsenal in 1919. http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/p...661316/?lng=en Attached Images

11th July 2016, 03:54 AM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I had puzzled over side rings and found this useful video which explains it very well Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfQmVQIgwa4 and below I add for interest...others. Develop your own swordmine...at https://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?q=ring%20hilt%20swords&rs=typed&0=ring\|typed&1=hi lt\|typed&2=swords\|typed Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 11th July 2016 at 06:27 AM.

11th July 2016, 06:23 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	That's not a Hilt... This is a Hilt!!! Attached Images

11th July 2016, 10:20 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	side rings? THIS is a ring: recent munitions grade german side sword based in a late 16c design. (i gotta clean off that black stuff) no fancy schmancy frills and superfluous extra rings on the palm side. finger ring for mingering per the video. note longer 'upper guard branch and curved lower branch to further protect your hand. Attached Images