Waved blades debate - combat value

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2006, 04:23 AM

It seems pertinant to note in this case that there are distinct differences in wavy or undulating blades and those which are serrated. While the wavy form in blades appear to be for effect, it is known that close serration on cutting knives is considered effective.
In most cases it is presumed that 'wavy' blades are mostly associated with ceremonial purpose, however Burton (p.137) suggests in discussing the wavy blade that, "...the object seems to be that of increasing the cutting surface".
The term 'flamberge' in the 8th c. was applied in France to nickname the sword of the knight Renaud de Montauban, meaning flamboyant. The term flammard by 13th c. had become used to describe knightly swords, and alluded to the flaming sword described in Biblical literature. It would seem that that symbolism was applied literally in the wavy blades seen on the huge landsknecht swords, without actual practical value being considered.
Swords with serpentine or undulating blades in India are of course of Nagan symbolism. Dr.Yusel in his "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths" (p.139) notes,"...highly unusual serpentine shaped swords that began to appear in the Ottoman world from the time of Sultan Bayezid II onwards. It seems hard to imagine that these swords had a use other than ceremonial".
In Pant (p.56-57) discussing nagan type swords, he notes serrated zig zag blades and that "...it is said that these swords were used against armour, but since these were not found very suitable by soldiers, abandoned in the late 17th c. AD".

In considering the purpose of the luk, or waves, on the blades of the Keris, I would defer to the knowledge of those enthusiasts here, however it is my impression that the number of these 'luk' is significant in symbolism in the blade itself.

It is important to also consider toothed, or saw type blades, typically intended for utility or practical purposes on bayonets and the short swords of pioneers in military units. These dual purpose weapons were often misperceived as barbaric weapons to cause horrific wounds, but of course were more tools than weapons, and were quite impractical in that use.

Despite the earlier case closed status on this topic, I simply wanted to add more detail on why the wavy, undulating or serpentine (nagan) blade would be more likely considered ceremonial or symbolic. While the toothed or saw blade would be somewhat impractical in most cutting or especially thrusting action, the serrated blade may have guaged functional merit.

Best regards,
Jim

Radu Transylvanicus · 6th February 2006, 04:58 AM

Jim, if you ever see a cat burglar running out trough the window with a bunch of your books from your library, please dont aim for the head. It could kill me...

nechesh · 6th February 2006, 01:37 PM

Jim, Thanks for your usual level of scholarly research. I have always appreciatedyour diligence in keeping this an academic forum. I find little argument with most of what you stated, but it still must be pointed out that to the Moro the wavy or undulating blade was combat ready, not merely ceremonial. And no one can doubt the levels of effectiveness they brought to that form.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2006, 02:32 PM

Hi Nechesh,
Thank you so much for the kind words. Point well taken on the Moro kris, and I'm glad you noted that,these weapons were indeed used most effectively by these fierce warriors. In reviewing Robert Cato's outstanding article in "Arts of Asia" in Jan/Feb 1991, "Islamic Swords of the Southern Philippines", he notes that all of the three basic forms of Moro kris blade carry nagan representation. In this the straight blade example (sundang espada), actually is intended to represent the serpent at rest, while the other two with degrees of undulation represent it in varying stages of motion.

The Moro kris is truly an exceptional example of a weapon which often carries varying degree of undulation in its blade, and is clearly a fighting example of sword carrying such symbolism. That it was effective is well marked by the fact that the Moro's remained unsubdued for over three hundred years, and thier ferocity in battle legendary.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2006, 02:37 PM

Thanks Radu JUDL!
If ya made it through the minefield, barbed wire, guard dogs and lasers, I'd be compelled to let you go!!!

Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 10th February 2006, 12:48 AM

Well, both straight and wavy blades deserve respect as long as they do not look like this mutilated abomination!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Titus Pullo · 10th February 2006, 10:12 AM

I'm just taking a crack shot, but aren't they for decoration and a symbol of courage...maybe they used them as a psychological weapon to psych themselves up. The wave blades...to me...look like fire, maybe hot flame rising. If you look at Thai designs and patterns, you'd see pattern of bright golden flame; I guess it is supposed to be very hot. The reason for that is they like to think they have conquered all fear by staying pured, doing good deeds by following the teaching of Buhddism, which the flame represents in the paintings, carving, and patterns on the temples. This is probably why the Siamese were the toughest fighters in Southeast Asia. In a few chapters, they talk about a couple thousands villagers, who fought part of the Burmese armies that range from twenty to thirty thousand troops. In the end all of them died fighting! You have the Celts in Gaul, which outnumbered the Roman ten to one, and they still fear them, and in the end they panic and fled, which gave Julius Ceaser a great victory and tremendous amount of respect at home. No offense to all you Celts, ofcourse!

6th February 2006, 04:23 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,599	It seems pertinant to note in this case that there are distinct differences in wavy or undulating blades and those which are serrated. While the wavy form in blades appear to be for effect, it is known that close serration on cutting knives is considered effective. In most cases it is presumed that 'wavy' blades are mostly associated with ceremonial purpose, however Burton (p.137) suggests in discussing the wavy blade that, "...the object seems to be that of increasing the cutting surface". The term 'flamberge' in the 8th c. was applied in France to nickname the sword of the knight Renaud de Montauban, meaning flamboyant. The term flammard by 13th c. had become used to describe knightly swords, and alluded to the flaming sword described in Biblical literature. It would seem that that symbolism was applied literally in the wavy blades seen on the huge landsknecht swords, without actual practical value being considered. Swords with serpentine or undulating blades in India are of course of Nagan symbolism. Dr.Yusel in his "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths" (p.139) notes,"...highly unusual serpentine shaped swords that began to appear in the Ottoman world from the time of Sultan Bayezid II onwards. It seems hard to imagine that these swords had a use other than ceremonial". In Pant (p.56-57) discussing nagan type swords, he notes serrated zig zag blades and that "...it is said that these swords were used against armour, but since these were not found very suitable by soldiers, abandoned in the late 17th c. AD". In considering the purpose of the luk, or waves, on the blades of the Keris, I would defer to the knowledge of those enthusiasts here, however it is my impression that the number of these 'luk' is significant in symbolism in the blade itself. It is important to also consider toothed, or saw type blades, typically intended for utility or practical purposes on bayonets and the short swords of pioneers in military units. These dual purpose weapons were often misperceived as barbaric weapons to cause horrific wounds, but of course were more tools than weapons, and were quite impractical in that use. Despite the earlier case closed status on this topic, I simply wanted to add more detail on why the wavy, undulating or serpentine (nagan) blade would be more likely considered ceremonial or symbolic. While the toothed or saw blade would be somewhat impractical in most cutting or especially thrusting action, the serrated blade may have guaged functional merit. Best regards, Jim

6th February 2006, 04:58 AM	#2
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Jim, if you ever see a cat burglar running out trough the window with a bunch of your books from your library, please dont aim for the head. It could kill me...

6th February 2006, 01:37 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Jim, Thanks for your usual level of scholarly research. I have always appreciatedyour diligence in keeping this an academic forum. I find little argument with most of what you stated, but it still must be pointed out that to the Moro the wavy or undulating blade was combat ready, not merely ceremonial. And no one can doubt the levels of effectiveness they brought to that form.

6th February 2006, 02:32 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,599	Hi Nechesh, Thank you so much for the kind words. Point well taken on the Moro kris, and I'm glad you noted that,these weapons were indeed used most effectively by these fierce warriors. In reviewing Robert Cato's outstanding article in "Arts of Asia" in Jan/Feb 1991, "Islamic Swords of the Southern Philippines", he notes that all of the three basic forms of Moro kris blade carry nagan representation. In this the straight blade example (sundang espada), actually is intended to represent the serpent at rest, while the other two with degrees of undulation represent it in varying stages of motion. The Moro kris is truly an exceptional example of a weapon which often carries varying degree of undulation in its blade, and is clearly a fighting example of sword carrying such symbolism. That it was effective is well marked by the fact that the Moro's remained unsubdued for over three hundred years, and thier ferocity in battle legendary. All best regards, Jim

6th February 2006, 02:37 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,599	Thanks Radu JUDL! If ya made it through the minefield, barbed wire, guard dogs and lasers, I'd be compelled to let you go!!! Best regards, Jim

10th February 2006, 12:48 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, both straight and wavy blades deserve respect as long as they do not look like this mutilated abomination! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

10th February 2006, 10:12 AM	#7
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	I'm just taking a crack shot, but aren't they for decoration and a symbol of courage...maybe they used them as a psychological weapon to psych themselves up. The wave blades...to me...look like fire, maybe hot flame rising. If you look at Thai designs and patterns, you'd see pattern of bright golden flame; I guess it is supposed to be very hot. The reason for that is they like to think they have conquered all fear by staying pured, doing good deeds by following the teaching of Buhddism, which the flame represents in the paintings, carving, and patterns on the temples. This is probably why the Siamese were the toughest fighters in Southeast Asia. In a few chapters, they talk about a couple thousands villagers, who fought part of the Burmese armies that range from twenty to thirty thousand troops. In the end all of them died fighting! You have the Celts in Gaul, which outnumbered the Roman ten to one, and they still fear them, and in the end they panic and fled, which gave Julius Ceaser a great victory and tremendous amount of respect at home. No offense to all you Celts, ofcourse!