Solo keris for comment.

[satrionumpaknogo]

Madura bro ..

U see to determined Kris from which era or area you need to look on the blade not the warangka bcoz warangka or the sheet n handle can be from anywhere depend on the owner favourite

Me for example I like Walikat I dont like Solo or Jogja style. Walikat bcoz it is sheet use back in Majapahit Era, Singhasari even Medang Kamulan kingdom n it is plane wood no pendok or anything..simple n practical.

Is it means my Kris from Majapahit..for some yes but others from Tuban era, Mataram era even Madura Sumenep Dalem era

Now regarding ur Kris it is not made by Mpu kraton like others mentioned I agree however Kris is more than just wht meet the eyes. It is the wisdom n the wielder willingness to practice the wisdom in everyday life is wht count.

Salam Rahayu

[David]

Originally Posted by satrionumpaknogo

Me for example I like Walikat I dont like Solo or Jogja style.

Welcome to the forum Rahayu.
Perhaps you can clear up something for me. You say above that you like Walikat, but not Solo or Jogja. It seems like you are mixing apples and oranges, as they say. Solo and Jogja are regions, kingdoms, while Walikat is a style of sheath. Are you really saying you prefer Walikat to Gayaman and Ladrang style sheaths? That would make more sense to me. It has always been my understanding that each of these sheath forms serves a different social function so personally i embrace them all, though i understand your preference for the simple and elegant forms that Walikat sheaths can take.

[satrionumpaknogo]

Originally Posted by David

Welcome to the forum Rahayu.
Perhaps you can clear up something for me. You say above that you like Walikat, but not Solo or Jogja. It seems like you are mixing apples and oranges, as they say. Solo and Jogja are regions, kingdoms, while Walikat is a style of sheath. Are you really saying you prefer Walikat to Gayaman and Ladrang style sheaths? That would make more sense to me. It has always been my understanding that each of these sheath forms serves a different social function so personally i embrace them all, though i understand your preference for the simple and elegant forms that Walikat sheaths can take.

yea you maybe right but when people say Solo or Jogja in term of warangka or sheet usually refer to Gayaman or Ladrang as these particular warangka associated with those two regions.

Regarding Walikat, it is because as I said in Majapahit era n the era before it no body know about gayaman or ladrang. These two warangka created in Mataram era. Majapahit era always use Walikat not because it simple or practical because Majapahit era span 500 years and mostly peaceful era which lead to Kris become piandel or pusaka (sorry dont know what English word for it) not a killing device so no need of practical or simple warangka.

Little explanation about piandel or pusaka, is Kris become something so powerful that to show it power you dont need to unsheet it just bring it and put it in your waist. I dont know you guys westerner understand or not but I can more clearer if you allow me I will put it on it own thread.

It is also an insult when keris Sajen being said as keris Majapahit, because keris sajen been exist as far as Kadiri and Daha Kingdom era or old Sunda even Sriwijaya and Medang Kamulan era.

Keris is not a killing device this you guys must understand. Its not wavy dagger use to stab some one or to kill some one. It is Karya Sastra Adiluhung written in the language of shape n metallurgy.

I think I will write about it and open a thread because there is big misunderstanding regarding Kris been going on. It need to be corrected


Satrio Numpak Nogo sign out hehehe

[David]

Originally Posted by satrionumpaknogo

yea you maybe right but when people say Solo or Jogja in term of warangka or sheet usually refer to Gayaman or Ladrang as these particular warangka associated with those two regions.

Regarding Walikat, it is because as I said in Majapahit era n the era before it no body know about gayaman or ladrang. These two warangka created in Mataram era. Majapahit era always use Walikat not because it simple or practical because Majapahit era span 500 years and mostly peaceful era which lead to Kris become piandel or pusaka (sorry dont know what English word for it) not a killing device so no need of practical or simple warangka.

Little explanation about piandel or pusaka, is Kris become something so powerful that to show it power you dont need to unsheet it just bring it and put it in your waist. I dont know you guys westerner understand or not but I can more clearer if you allow me I will put it on it own thread.

It is also an insult when keris Sajen being said as keris Majapahit, because keris sajen been exist as far as Kadiri and Daha Kingdom era or old Sunda even Sriwijaya and Medang Kamulan era.

Keris is not a killing device this you guys must understand. Its not wavy dagger use to stab some one or to kill some one. It is Karya Sastra Adiluhung written in the language of shape n metallurgy.

I think I will write about it and open a thread because there is big misunderstanding regarding Kris been going on. It need to be corrected


Satrio Numpak Nogo sign out hehehe

Thanks for your response. I think we would all enjoy hearing your further perspectives on keris in a separate thread. You may want to spend some time in our archives first though, to understand just what we actually do understand here before attempting to correct any perceived misconceptions. This is an international forum made up of collectors from all around the world and we have many Indonesian members as well as Westerners. There are many members here who have been studying the keris and keris culture for decades including a member who apprenticed in keris making with a Keraton Empu for many years. The vast majority of our members are well aware that "Keris Majapahit" is a misnomer and that keris sajen is far better term for this type of keris and that Ladrang and Gayaman sheath styles are latter developments than the Walikat form. It would be a good idea to get to know your audience before you tell them how wrong they have been. Your words, knowledge and opinions are welcome here and will be respected. We would ask that you do the same regarding the knowledge and opinions of our other members.

[A. G. Maisey]

The first image is from the Candi Sukuh site.

Candi Sukuh is a 15th century sacred site that has been reliably dated to around 1437AD.

"Gapura buta mangan wong", the accepted reading of the chronogram giving the related date is 9531 = 1359 Saka or 1437AD.


The second image is from Candi Penataran, an East Javanese temple complex constructed between the 12th and 15th century, with one reliable date of 1369AD. Candi Penataran was visited regularly by the Majapahit ruling hierarchy.


The Kingdom of Majapahit was established in 1293 by Raden Wijaya. It began to decline following the death of Hayam Wuruk in 1389; the Kingdom finally collapsed some time between 1478 and 1525.


The Kingdom of Majapahit lasted for about 200 years.


Both Candi Sukuh and Candi Penataran were active sacred sites during the Majapahit era.


Please take note of the keris scabbards shown in the carvings below.

As an after thought, I probably should add this comment:-

belief in the nature of the keris has varied throughout the period of its existence, and is also dependent upon the geographic location of the followers of that belief, and of the philosophical orientation of those believers, thus, if we are to specify the nature of the keris we need to also specify the limiting parameters of that nature.

[David]

Thanks Alan. I would say that the sheath in the first image, if the order hasn't reversed on my screen, has many attributes of a ladrang form.
I cannot really tell as much from the second image except to say it does not look like walikat to my eyes.

[A. G. Maisey]

The second image is pretty poor, it is an old 35mm photo that I digitised. What struck me about it when I saw the carving is that it is to all intents and purposes what we would now recognise as a Bugis keris.

The Candi Sukuh wrongko has been copied in recent wronkos a number of times, but it does definitely look like a ladrangan form. In the photo its not all that clear, but when you look closely at the actual carving, the hilt seems to closely resemble a Bugis style rather than any Javanese style.

We do tend to think of Solo and Jogja styles when we think of gayaman or ladrangan, but it is as well to bear in mind that other areas also have their own formal and non-formal styles.