What is purpose of fullers on blades?

fernando · 22nd June 2016, 03:55 PM

Sorry to come up with a recurrent source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuller_(weapon)

This because in my home language we mainly (only) use the term 'goteira' (from the Latin gutta =drop ) as for blood dripping, although we (some) are aware this is a fantasy.
It would however be interesting to know how such connotation was born ... semantic wise.

Roland_M · 22nd June 2016, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Sorry to come up with a recurrent source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuller_(weapon)

This because in my home language we mainly (only) use the term 'goteira' (from the Latin gutta =drop ) as for blood dripping, although we (some) are aware this is a fantasy.
It would however be interesting to know how such connotation was born ... semantic wise.

Hi Fernando,

it's the same in Germany. We call it blood groove (Blut-Rinne). I think this term was invented by civilians or maybe authors of adventure books about war. My own father is one of the people which really believe, that the groove was made to led the blood away from body with more efficiency or similar stupid stuff.

Roland

Battara · 22nd June 2016, 05:14 PM

Roland, this is so common among so many peoples around the world since the early 20th century, after the need for bladed weaponry was past.

thinreadline · 23rd June 2016, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hi Fernando,

it's the same in Germany. We call it blood groove (Blut-Rinne). I think this term was invented by civilians or maybe authors of adventure books about war. My own father is one of the people which really believe, that the groove was made to led the blood away from body with more efficiency or similar stupid stuff.

Roland

This is a commonly held belief especially amongst those who have been in the armed forces. It is usually a fantasy promulgated by macho training sergeants to young recruits to scare or impress them ... even I was told this in the 1970s by several NCOs when I was in the Joint Services .

Roland_M · 23rd June 2016, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinreadline

This is a commonly held belief especially amongst those who have been in the armed forces. It is usually a fantasy promulgated by macho training sergeants to young recruits to scare or impress them ... even I was told this in the 1970s by several NCOs when I was in the Joint Services .

Thank you for your explanation. Maybe this is a kind of training sergeant running gag and they always have tears in their eyes from laughing, if the recruits believe that.

My father told this to me when I was six or so and I couldnt believe that. I have been thinking about this for a long time as a child, to find out whats wrong with this theory.

thinreadline · 23rd June 2016, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Thank you for your explanation. Maybe this is a kind of training sergeant running gag and they always have tears in their eyes from laughing, if the recruits believe that.

My father told this to me when I was six or so and I couldnt believe that. I have been thinking about this for a long time as a child, to find out whats wrong with this theory.

Yes I think it is a common theme with training NCOs especially with young newbies

Helleri · 23rd June 2016, 10:53 PM

I've heard it posited that a well shaped fuller or groove can increase shock absorption of a blade. On the surface of it, mechanically this does make sense. A semi circular dish is basically a vault. And vaults are good at redistributing pressure through deflection. The idea of this would be that when you hit something, that you are less likely to feel the shock of an impact through the handle as severely. However I've never seen any experiments that test this. And so I must treat this as speculation.

Blood letting and air pocketing have the same issue to my mind. They are simply theory craft that have not been tested to satisfaction that I have seen. Anything that can be submitted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. In other words if you don't see proof you are seeing an opinion. That is not to mitigate the value of the informed or trusted opinion. As those can lead to tangential learning.

motan · 24th June 2016, 12:17 AM

Just few additional remarks:
I, and others, have mentioned strength/weight ratio as a factor. But this apparently very logical argument has a big hole in it. The main strength parameter to increase (per weight unit) is the lateral stiffness and this is NOT a good idea because it reduces lateral flexibility and increase the chances of bending and breaking. A lot has been done in sword forging to achieve the exact opposite-more flexibility, like in katanas (very functional swords indeed).
Air-pocketing and blood grooves do not make sense either if we consider physics and physiology. Suction (underpressure) does, in theory, because in battle situaton, a sword would have to be inserted and pulled out very quickly (much too fast for bleeding to develop). I beleive in empirical solutions, so this will remain a feeble theory untill experiments are conducted.
Why fullers then?

thinreadline · 23rd June 2016, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Sorry to come up with a recurrent source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuller_(weapon)

This because in my home language we mainly (only) use the term 'goteira' (from the Latin gutta =drop ) as for blood dripping, although we (some) are aware this is a fantasy.
It would however be interesting to know how such connotation was born ... semantic wise.

But Fernando your word goteira and the English word gutter have the same Latin root ie 'gutta' ... and of course a fuller has the same appearance as a gutter but not necessarily the same function

24th June 2016, 12:17 AM	#8
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Why fullers? Just few additional remarks: I, and others, have mentioned strength/weight ratio as a factor. But this apparently very logical argument has a big hole in it. The main strength parameter to increase (per weight unit) is the lateral stiffness and this is NOT a good idea because it reduces lateral flexibility and increase the chances of bending and breaking. A lot has been done in sword forging to achieve the exact opposite-more flexibility, like in katanas (very functional swords indeed). Air-pocketing and blood grooves do not make sense either if we consider physics and physiology. Suction (underpressure) does, in theory, because in battle situaton, a sword would have to be inserted and pulled out very quickly (much too fast for bleeding to develop). I beleive in empirical solutions, so this will remain a feeble theory untill experiments are conducted. Why fullers then?

22nd June 2016, 03:55 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Sorry to come up with a recurrent source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuller_(weapon) This because in my home language we mainly (only) use the term 'goteira' (from the Latin gutta =drop ) as for blood dripping, although we (some) are aware this is a fantasy. It would however be interesting to know how such connotation was born ... semantic wise.

22nd June 2016, 05:14 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,362	Roland, this is so common among so many peoples around the world since the early 20th century, after the need for bladed weaponry was past.

23rd June 2016, 10:53 PM	#7
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	I've heard it posited that a well shaped fuller or groove can increase shock absorption of a blade. On the surface of it, mechanically this does make sense. A semi circular dish is basically a vault. And vaults are good at redistributing pressure through deflection. The idea of this would be that when you hit something, that you are less likely to feel the shock of an impact through the handle as severely. However I've never seen any experiments that test this. And so I must treat this as speculation. Blood letting and air pocketing have the same issue to my mind. They are simply theory craft that have not been tested to satisfaction that I have seen. Anything that can be submitted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. In other words if you don't see proof you are seeing an opinion. That is not to mitigate the value of the informed or trusted opinion. As those can lead to tangential learning.