Medieval sword of type XIII A with with latten-inlaid decorations

Cerjak · 21st May 2016, 07:31 PM

latten-inlaid decorations

Cerjak · 24th May 2016, 10:06 AM

latten inlaid

fernando · 24th May 2016, 12:02 PM

Magnificent sword, Jean-Luc.
I wish i could spot marks similar to those, but ...

Cerjak · 24th May 2016, 03:53 PM

Hi Fernando,

Thank you for your kind comment,for the star I have found a similar on one medieval blade ( see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20883
Best

Jean-Luc

Jim McDougall · 24th May 2016, 06:03 PM

Hi Jean Luc,
Beautiful great sword!!! and for all I can see, in my opinion this may well be a Passau sword, and of the period you suggest. These latten markings could well have been punched in later, but certainly later in the 15th into 16th as the markings comparable I have seen date slightly later.
The 'heart' and cross was a known Passau inlay (Cronau, 1885 p.18; Kinman p.65) end of 15th c. but the heart was usually inverted from the cross.

The encircled cross is the cross crosslet it seems was earlier use and by the 15th century the cross fourchee encircled was more commonly seen. This cross form may well have been used anachronistically or aligned more with specific conventions such as order or other imbuement.

The 'star' is not really a star but appears an interpretation on the 'pi' marks used in Milan early, actually a crown atop two 'tails'. This is of course a highly stylized version, but these kinds of stylizations (common on latten inlays) were known used by Stantlers around early 16thc .

While the early 16th century seems late for these types of swords, it is noted that the forms often remained in use well after the period used in the classifications and forms could remain in use concurrently and transcending those guidelines. Thus more accurate dating is difficult based on style or even these markings which as noted might have been set later.

Cerjak · 29th May 2016, 08:16 PM

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Hi Jean Luc,
the markings comparable I have seen date slightly later.
The 'heart' and cross was a known Passau inlay (Cronau, 1885 p.18; Kinman p.65) end of 15th c. but
.

Dear Jim

In this Sword from Nadrlje, Serbia we have the same symbols ( heart and cross only the location for the cross is under the heart.
Best

Jean-Luc

Reventlov · 5th June 2016, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The encircled cross is the cross crosslet it seems was earlier use and by the 15th century the cross fourchee encircled was more commonly seen. This cross form may well have been used anachronistically or aligned more with specific conventions such as order or other imbuement.

A latten cross crosslet appears on the pommel of (at least) two swords of unquestioned provenance. One appearing in Oakeshott's Records was donated to the armoury of Alexandria in 1436-37 (year 840 in the Muslim calendar). The other was found in the River Tina in Northern Poland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

The 'heart' and cross was a known Passau inlay (Cronau, 1885 p.18; Kinman p.65)
In this Sword from Nadrlje, Serbia we have the same symbols ( heart and cross only the location for the cross is under the heart.

Has any one ever seen a list or count of swords with this mark, or tried to compile one themselves? So far I have counted 10 examples... the swords I have found seem to be generally distributed in Eastern Europe; the western-most example is one in Germany (one of the Sempach swords), the rest I have found are the two in Serbia, and others from Poland, Slovakia... one is in the Hermitage, and one more was also from Alexandrian armoury.

Cerjak · 6th June 2016, 06:15 PM

Hello Reventlov,

Thank you for your comment ,Do you have some pictures for similar marks ?
If yes could you post it here ?
best
CERJAK

Has any one ever seen a list or count of swords with this mark, or tried to compile one themselves? So far I have counted 10 examples... the swords I have found seem to be generally distributed in Eastern Europe; the western-most example is one in Germany (one of the Sempach swords), the rest I have found are the two in Serbia, and others from Poland, Slovakia... one is in the Hermitage, and one more was also from Alexandrian armoury.[/QUOTE]

fernando · 24th May 2016, 06:30 PM

If Jasper came around i bet he might wish to add some conclusions on both sword and marks

.

Jim McDougall · 24th May 2016, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

If Jasper came around i bet he might wish to add some conclusions on both sword and marks

.

Thanks Fernando.
Hope so.

fernando · 24th May 2016, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks Fernando.
Hope so.

Notwithstanding i find your assessments well in business.
I was paging the catalog of Schweizerischen Landsmuseum and latten-inlaid symbols not equal but suggesting same type of attitude, were practiced during the XVI century, as you pointed out.

21st May 2016, 07:31 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	latten-inlaid decorations latten-inlaid decorations Attached Images Last edited by Cerjak; 21st May 2016 at 07:50 PM.

24th May 2016, 10:06 AM	#2
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	last latten inlaid latten inlaid Attached Images

29th May 2016, 08:16 PM	#6
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Hi Jean Luc, the markings comparable I have seen date slightly later. The 'heart' and cross was a known Passau inlay (Cronau, 1885 p.18; Kinman p.65) end of 15th c. but . Dear Jim In this Sword from Nadrlje, Serbia we have the same symbols ( heart and cross only the location for the cross is under the heart. Best Jean-Luc Attached Images

24th May 2016, 12:02 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Magnificent sword, Jean-Luc. I wish i could spot marks similar to those, but ...

24th May 2016, 03:53 PM	#4
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Hi Fernando, Thank you for your kind comment,for the star I have found a similar on one medieval blade ( see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20883 Best Jean-Luc

24th May 2016, 06:03 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,594	Hi Jean Luc, Beautiful great sword!!! and for all I can see, in my opinion this may well be a Passau sword, and of the period you suggest. These latten markings could well have been punched in later, but certainly later in the 15th into 16th as the markings comparable I have seen date slightly later. The 'heart' and cross was a known Passau inlay (Cronau, 1885 p.18; Kinman p.65) end of 15th c. but the heart was usually inverted from the cross. The encircled cross is the cross crosslet it seems was earlier use and by the 15th century the cross fourchee encircled was more commonly seen. This cross form may well have been used anachronistically or aligned more with specific conventions such as order or other imbuement. The 'star' is not really a star but appears an interpretation on the 'pi' marks used in Milan early, actually a crown atop two 'tails'. This is of course a highly stylized version, but these kinds of stylizations (common on latten inlays) were known used by Stantlers around early 16thc . While the early 16th century seems late for these types of swords, it is noted that the forms often remained in use well after the period used in the classifications and forms could remain in use concurrently and transcending those guidelines. Thus more accurate dating is difficult based on style or even these markings which as noted might have been set later.

6th June 2016, 06:15 PM	#8
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Hello Reventlov, Thank you for your comment ,Do you have some pictures for similar marks ? If yes could you post it here ? best CERJAK Has any one ever seen a list or count of swords with this mark, or tried to compile one themselves? So far I have counted 10 examples... the swords I have found seem to be generally distributed in Eastern Europe; the western-most example is one in Germany (one of the Sempach swords), the rest I have found are the two in Serbia, and others from Poland, Slovakia... one is in the Hermitage, and one more was also from Alexandrian armoury.[/QUOTE]

24th May 2016, 06:30 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	If Jasper came around i bet he might wish to add some conclusions on both sword and marks .