Markings on a Takouba-mounted European Backsword

[blue lander]

Hi,

I posted this on the ethnographic side, but as the blade appears to be European I've started a thread on this end.

The blade only has two markings on it. One is the writing, apparently in cyrillic or a related alphabet. The other is two clusters of three dots. There was probably something in between the dots, but corrosion removed it.

Any thoughts on what the blade says or where it came from?

[blue lander]

Just won the auction for this but it won't arrive for awhile. The blade supposedly says "Zacona Toscania". Zacona is a town in Tuscany, I presume that's where it was made. Does that town have a history of making swords?

[TVV]

Pity about the blade damage from rust, but otherwise a very nice and interesting takouba. Iain has similar Italian backsword blade mounted ones and I am sure he will chime in.

Teodor

[Iain]

An intriguing one! I'll hold off on detailed comments until I can see better images, but this has some interesting features like the brass at the base of the blade.

A pity about the condition of the blade, somewhat relic condition, but I still see a lot of appeal to the piece. I think you will find that the blade has been modified to be two edged.

I'll be interested to see details when you have it in hand. I am jealous that I didn't see it first!

[blue lander]

Thanks! I was a little surprised you didn't snap it up, I figured it was too ratty for your collection. At least the "interesting" part of the blade is intact.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by blue lander

Thanks! I was a little surprised you didn't snap it up, I figured it was too ratty for your collection. At least the "interesting" part of the blade is intact.

I simply didn't see it! needless to say if you tire of it....

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by blue lander

Just won the auction for this but it won't arrive for awhile.

Congratulation, a fine sword.

I also saw it, but i bought a Piso Gading (which was not really cheap) one day before the end of this auction.

I think, it is an early Renaissance blade and one possibility could be, that this blade was found in a warrior tomb and was combined with a takouba hilt.

I wonder what can cause such massive nicks? Was he a guy like Bud Spencer?

It would be very nice, if you make a new thread after the blade is arrived.


Roland

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Congratulation, a fine sword.

I also saw it, but i bought a Piso Gading (which was not really cheap) one day before the end of this auction.

I think, it is an early Renaissance blade and one possibility could be, that this blade was found in a warrior tomb and was combined with a takouba hilt.

I wonder what can cause such massive nicks? Was he a guy like Bud Spencer?

It would be very nice, if you make a new thread after the blade is arrived.


Roland

These blades were widely exported, including to North Africa and then into the Sahel region. So not unusual at all really to see early blades in takouba mounts. If you look at the ones I posted you'll see even 14th and 15th century blades.

[colin henshaw]

Those extensive and quite regular indentations to the blade on both sides seem very odd...

I kind of doubt if they were caused only by rust.

[blue lander]

If it's from rust I wonder if the pattern is due to the way the blade was forged? Or did somebody beat on the blade? You'd think that level of abuse would have snapped the blade.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by blue lander

If it's from rust I wonder if the pattern is due to the way the blade was forged? Or did somebody beat on the blade? You'd think that level of abuse would have snapped the blade.

A combination I think. I have seen other takouba blades with abuse to the edge that looks more than just coincidental...

[blue lander]

When you say "exported", do you mean that they were made for export, or that they were used in Europe and then exported after their were no longer useful? If they were made for export it seems odd to put "Zacona Toscania" on the blade as nobody would be able to read it wherever it ended up. A symbol like a moon or lion or whatever would make it more identifiable I'd think.

[Jim McDougall]

Good call to cross post this here Blue Lander! I honestly don't think a lot of the guys on the Ethnographic side read or post over here as they do not see the connection between these fields. The very reason we did start this forum is because of the profound connections between European weapons/blades and ethnographic.
Ironically, one obvious reason for Briggs' outstanding work on European blade markings (JAAS, 1965) is because of their presence in Saharan takouba.

First inclinations on this blade is probably Italian, 18th century schiavona blade, in any case certainly European and of that vintage. This is a most interesting marriage of backsword blade to takouba, as obviously the standard was broadsword blades. However, many takouba were mounted in later incarnations with very old blades, which sometimes were military backswords etc.
I have seen 19th century blades even by Mole in some, which is uncommon to see English blades in takouba.

It seems also that native artisans have sometimes tried to duplicate European lettering in blades acquired, one with awkwardly applied letters seemed to attempt approximating ANDREA (Ferrara) but it is hard to tell as the 'A's are all really discernible.
This inscription seems to have a '2' then some letters which could be 'A's (?) and the backwards 'N's are temptingly like Cyrillic letter. However that seems wildly out of context.

It seems I have seen a mix of numeral and disconnected letters on a blade in Arabian context seemingly replicating European marks, and numbers of these Italian blades may have entered North African trade routes during their colonial activities in Sudan and Ethiopia end of 19th into pre WWII.

I hope someone out there can either recognize this or place a more tangible explanation beyond these speculations

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Good call to cross post this here Blue Lander! I honestly don't think a lot of the guys on the Ethnographic side read or post over here as they do not see the connection between these fields. The very reason we did start this forum is because of the profound connections between European weapons/blades and ethnographic.
Ironically, one obvious reason for Briggs' outstanding work on European blade markings (JAAS, 1965) is because of their presence in Saharan takouba.

First inclinations on this blade is probably Italian, 18th century schiavona blade, in any case certainly European and of that vintage. This is a most interesting marriage of backsword blade to takouba, as obviously the standard was broadsword blades. However, many takouba were mounted in later incarnations with very old blades, which sometimes were military backswords etc.
I have seen 19th century blades even by Mole in some, which is uncommon to see English blades in takouba.

It seems also that native artisans have sometimes tried to duplicate European lettering in blades acquired, one with awkwardly applied letters seemed to attempt approximating ANDREA (Ferrara) but it is hard to tell as the 'A's are all really discernible.
This inscription seems to have a '2' then some letters which could be 'A's (?) and the backwards 'N's are temptingly like Cyrillic letter. However that seems wildly out of context.

It seems I have seen a mix of numeral and disconnected letters on a blade in Arabian context seemingly replicating European marks, and numbers of these Italian blades may have entered North African trade routes during their colonial activities in Sudan and Ethiopia end of 19th into pre WWII.

I hope someone out there can either recognize this or place a more tangible explanation beyond these speculations

Jim there appear to be two A in Majescule gothic style..with a few letters between them and an unusual 2 at the front. This coincides roughly with the sword letters format at Odd Sword which makes me think they could be from the same region/related.

I have to say that an awful lot of stuff has been left somewhat stranded on the other forum including very important posts from members ...I don't disagree with posting on European ...quite the reverse... but would it not be better having the whole thread please?

[fernando]

An unsupported theory would be that, there is no cyrillic involved here. The mirror atitude of the N could just be the smith's fantasy ... or illiteracy.
Reading the lettering straight forward, we would have ANCONA which is the name, for one, of a city and province in center Italy, somehow related with Roman era history, ancient weapon archeology and the like.
Would there be swordmaking over there during the age of the blade in discussion ?
... Notwithstanding this is a silly approach .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

An unsupported theory would be that, there is no cyrillic involved here. The mirror atitude of the N could just be the smith's fantasy ... or illiteracy.
Reading the lettering straight forward, we would have ANCONA which is the name, for one, of a city and province in center Italy, somehow related with Roman era history, ancient weapon archeology and the like.
Would there be swordmaking over there during the age of the blade in discussion ?
... Notwithstanding this is a silly approach .

Silly?
Silly is the editorial page on artwork now reaching classic proportion on the other forum!
There are a number of approaches to analysis of markings, and while your observation using Occams Razor is quite viable, sometimes things are not what they seem.

[blue lander]

This is the only other marking on the blade. Two triangles of three dots. If there was anything written between them it was already eaten by corrosion. They're right after the ricasso and right before the writing.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... I have to say that an awful lot of stuff has been left somewhat stranded on the other forum including very important posts from members ...I don't disagree with posting on European ...quite the reverse... but would it not be better having the whole thread please?

Merging threads is an easy thing when both were started in the same forum; not so linear when each one is located in different forum sections, as one will vanish to the eyes of members who posted there. As eventually the item in discussion has both Ethno and European roots, there is the option to chose in which forum merged threads will be placed.
Perhaps is best that the threads author agrees with this merging. What do you say, blue lander ?

... and by the way, this merging exercises are not so often done; i hope this one works properly

[blue lander]

Yup, I agree one thread makes more sense

[fernando]

Done.