Pendongkok Keris Makassar/Gowa(?)

rasdan · 1st May 2016, 02:52 PM

Hi guys,

Earlier this month I came to know that a person here in Malaysia found a gold pendongkok with rubies 4 feet in the ground using a metal detector. The weight is about 60 grams with 8 large rubies each encircled with another 8 smaller rubies. 2 of the rubies are missing. Usually this type of pendongkok are identified as Makassar/Gowa type. I don't know the exact location where this was found. But I think it was found in Kota Tinggi; southern part of Malaysia on the east coast - I think the owner is from around that area.

I should really purchase a metal detector to start a new hobby.

Here are the images from this owner's Facebook. His name is Raja Kamaruzaman. I posted the pictures in different thread. As requested by David, I post the pictures of this pendongkok in a new thread. As a comparison I post some pictures of keris that were said to originate from Makassar or probably Bugis.

Battara · 1st May 2016, 08:52 PM

He found this? I may move there.........

Gustav · 1st May 2016, 11:41 PM

Local variants of this kind of Mendak/Selut are found also in North-Sumatra (Gayo) with Bawar hilts, which resemble early planar Javanese hilts, which possibly also are the source for Nias planar hilts:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=bawar

Gustav · 1st May 2016, 11:55 PM

The one from "Javanese Gold", Hunter Thompson collection. Who knows, if it really is coming from Java. If it is, it could be a hint to the possibility, that the refined aristocratic hilt figures could have been made after a Javanese model, or some of better workmanship even are made in Java.

Gustav · 1st May 2016, 11:58 PM

And one from Tropenmuseum, found or acquired on Bali (which says not much about the real or possible origin) :

David · 2nd May 2016, 12:50 AM

Gustav, thanks for posting the example from Old Javanese Gold. I was just coming here to do the same.
Just for further clarification, there is a somewhat different description of this ring in the actual book which provides additional information on its possible origins.
"This kris hilt fragment comes from the island of Ternate in eastern Indonesia, rather than Java, but it is highly similar to Javanese workmanship, the repoussé on the upper face are especially comparable to to those on Javanese anklets..."
Ternate is quite a distance away from Jawa off North Maluku.

Rick · 2nd May 2016, 03:33 AM

I don't have the book.
Originates from; or was found, David?

David · 2nd May 2016, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I don't have the book.
Originates from; or was found, David?

The information is a quote from the book Rick. I'm afraid i know no more.

rasdan · 2nd May 2016, 05:46 PM

I've also been contemplating to do that Battara!

I didn't notice that Gayo keris also uses selut Gustav. Very interesting!

It seems that this selut/pendongkok were found where ever the Bugis sets foot on.

From Sulawesi, Ternate, Bali and the Malay Peninsula. So, it is probably safe to assume that this style of selut is probably Sulawesi style since we also have a dated example above form 1749 which is a keris with Sulawesi dress.

Anybody know why the rubies in the metal detector selut are oddly and shaped? The shapes are different form each other it looks like naturally formed?

David · 2nd May 2016, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Anybody know why the rubies in the metal detector selut are oddly and shaped? The shapes are different form each other it looks like naturally formed?

Ruby in its nature form is most likely as a crystal. The stones in this selut seem to have been tumble polished. That would account for various sizes and shapes. The naturally occurring mineral would not look like these polished stones, they would look more like these crystals below.

rasdan · 3rd May 2016, 07:03 AM

Cool! Thanks David. I always wondered how these stones were processed. Statring to think to DIY these stones for my selut project..

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2016, 08:36 AM

The red stones in these keris rings might be ruby, true, but they might also be tourmaline, or garnet or spinel, or even something else.

What David has shown us is most certainly one of the forms that ruby rough comes in, but if you are panning river gravel, or the old bed of a river that is no longer there, for ruby or other gemstones, the stones are usually like little water worn pebbles, the image I've posted shows more or less what you can expect them to look like, but they'll often be much smoother than in the pic.

In S.E. Asia, and also in India I believe, these little pebbles were individually polished to follow the shape of the stone. They were stuck onto the end of a stick with hard wax to permit the polishing.

rasdan · 3rd May 2016, 05:16 PM

Thanks Alan, no wonder some of the stones are very small. One guy showed me his talisman of this type of polished stones that looks like the seed of pomegranate. It makes sense that these stones were panned in a river as it is very small.

David · 3rd May 2016, 07:19 PM

Well yes Alan, when rubies find there way into a river be they do become river worn and break down over time. But those river-worn ruby pebbles most certainly began as larger crystals since that is the way rubies form. You can still see the crystal structure in many of the fragments in Alan's photo.The same can be said for tourmaline and garnets. Is is my understanding that red, clear stones are such as garnet and tourmaline are generally referred to as ruby in that area.

A. G. Maisey · 4th May 2016, 12:36 AM

Yes David, that's correct.

They start as a crystal, and over time they become what I posted a pic of. Commercial mining for these gemstones can be carried out in a couple of ways, they can mine for what you posted a pic of, and often that will come as a lump of some sort of rock, with the gemstone crystal attached to it, or they can mine river gravel.

Sometimes the river gravels will be many meters below the surface of the ground, and they have to remove the over-burden before they actually get to the gem bearing deposit. Sometimes erosion over thousands of years will remove the over-burden, and you find the gemstones sitting on top of the earth, so its just a matter of the fossicker wandering around and picking up the rough. Sometimes you need to pan for them. I've seen some miners with big vacuum cleaner-like pumps, and they suck the gravel off the bottom of the river and run it down a sluice.

There's a lot of ways to mine or fossick for gemstones and for semi-precious stones, but currently here in Australia, I believe all the big operations are doing dry mining and removing over-burden to get at the gravels of long-gone rivers.

Semi-precious stones like agates and jasper you can often just pick up off the ground. I live on a lake and frequently go for a walk around the edge of the lake, occasionally I've picked up jasper and agate at the lakes edge. I even found a decent little agate in my backyard a couple of years ago.

But to get back to ruby. I've been out of gemstone dealing for more than 30 years now, but even 30 years ago, in fact even 50 years ago, it was very, very difficult to buy good ruby faceting material, my understanding is that these days it has gone from difficult to impossible. So what some dealers are doing is buying up old jewellery and remounting the stone. They particularly want bigger stones, because then they can make one big stone into two smaller ones, and it seems that this gives a higher profit.

This recut thing is not unknown in gemological circles. There was a diamond called the Tavernier Blue that first appeared in France in the 17th century. It came from India, and it was sold to the French ruler, after which it was known as the French Blue. In the 1790's it was stolen from the crown jewels and recut into the Hope diamond, so it would not be recognised, the smaller part of the Tavernier was recut and made into a ring for the wife of a Russian Emperor (Paul I?)

To get back to rubies. Yes, at the pasar level in Jawa all red stones that can easily be confused with rubies are called "mirah". In Javanese the word 'mirah' means both 'red' and 'ruby'. However, in Indonesian the correct name for ruby is 'mirah delima', or even 'batu delima'. Indonesian dealers in antiques and precious stones tend to take advantage of this potentially confusing situation. The good, reputable jewellers do not work the buyer like this and mostly they refer to ruby as 'ruby', so there is no confusion, but in the pasars anything that's red gets called 'mirah'.

I used to sell a lot of chrysoprase to wholesalers in Bali and Central Jawa. This stuff got cut into Chinese looking stones and mostly mounted in Chinese looking gold jewellery. When it hit the marketplace it was called "Hong Kong Jade". True jade it very hard, you will not mark it with a sharp knife. Chrysoprase is very soft and easily scratched, and of course only a fraction the value of jade.

1st May 2016, 02:52 PM	#1
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Pendongkok Keris Makassar/Gowa(?) Hi guys, Earlier this month I came to know that a person here in Malaysia found a gold pendongkok with rubies 4 feet in the ground using a metal detector. The weight is about 60 grams with 8 large rubies each encircled with another 8 smaller rubies. 2 of the rubies are missing. Usually this type of pendongkok are identified as Makassar/Gowa type. I don't know the exact location where this was found. But I think it was found in Kota Tinggi; southern part of Malaysia on the east coast - I think the owner is from around that area. I should really purchase a metal detector to start a new hobby. Here are the images from this owner's Facebook. His name is Raja Kamaruzaman. I posted the pictures in different thread. As requested by David, I post the pictures of this pendongkok in a new thread. As a comparison I post some pictures of keris that were said to originate from Makassar or probably Bugis. Attached Images

1st May 2016, 11:41 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Local variants of this kind of Mendak/Selut are found also in North-Sumatra (Gayo) with Bawar hilts, which resemble early planar Javanese hilts, which possibly also are the source for Nias planar hilts: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=bawar Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 2nd May 2016 at 12:05 AM.

1st May 2016, 11:55 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	The one from "Javanese Gold", Hunter Thompson collection. Who knows, if it really is coming from Java. If it is, it could be a hint to the possibility, that the refined aristocratic hilt figures could have been made after a Javanese model, or some of better workmanship even are made in Java. Attached Images

1st May 2016, 11:58 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	And one from Tropenmuseum, found or acquired on Bali (which says not much about the real or possible origin) : Attached Images

2nd May 2016, 12:50 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	Gustav, thanks for posting the example from Old Javanese Gold. I was just coming here to do the same. Just for further clarification, there is a somewhat different description of this ring in the actual book which provides additional information on its possible origins. "This kris hilt fragment comes from the island of Ternate in eastern Indonesia, rather than Java, but it is highly similar to Javanese workmanship, the repoussé on the upper face are especially comparable to to those on Javanese anklets..." Ternate is quite a distance away from Jawa off North Maluku. Attached Images Last edited by David; 2nd May 2016 at 06:47 AM. Reason: correct spelling

1st May 2016, 08:52 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	He found this? I may move there.........

2nd May 2016, 03:33 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I don't have the book. Originates from; or was found, David?

2nd May 2016, 05:46 PM	#9
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	I've also been contemplating to do that Battara! I didn't notice that Gayo keris also uses selut Gustav. Very interesting! It seems that this selut/pendongkok were found where ever the Bugis sets foot on. From Sulawesi, Ternate, Bali and the Malay Peninsula. So, it is probably safe to assume that this style of selut is probably Sulawesi style since we also have a dated example above form 1749 which is a keris with Sulawesi dress. Anybody know why the rubies in the metal detector selut are oddly and shaped? The shapes are different form each other it looks like naturally formed?

3rd May 2016, 07:03 AM	#11
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Cool! Thanks David. I always wondered how these stones were processed. Statring to think to DIY these stones for my selut project..

3rd May 2016, 08:36 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,894	The red stones in these keris rings might be ruby, true, but they might also be tourmaline, or garnet or spinel, or even something else. What David has shown us is most certainly one of the forms that ruby rough comes in, but if you are panning river gravel, or the old bed of a river that is no longer there, for ruby or other gemstones, the stones are usually like little water worn pebbles, the image I've posted shows more or less what you can expect them to look like, but they'll often be much smoother than in the pic. In S.E. Asia, and also in India I believe, these little pebbles were individually polished to follow the shape of the stone. They were stuck onto the end of a stick with hard wax to permit the polishing. Attached Images

3rd May 2016, 05:16 PM	#13
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Thanks Alan, no wonder some of the stones are very small. One guy showed me his talisman of this type of polished stones that looks like the seed of pomegranate. It makes sense that these stones were panned in a river as it is very small.

3rd May 2016, 07:19 PM	#14
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	Well yes Alan, when rubies find there way into a river be they do become river worn and break down over time. But those river-worn ruby pebbles most certainly began as larger crystals since that is the way rubies form. You can still see the crystal structure in many of the fragments in Alan's photo.The same can be said for tourmaline and garnets. Is is my understanding that red, clear stones are such as garnet and tourmaline are generally referred to as ruby in that area.

4th May 2016, 12:36 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,894	Yes David, that's correct. They start as a crystal, and over time they become what I posted a pic of. Commercial mining for these gemstones can be carried out in a couple of ways, they can mine for what you posted a pic of, and often that will come as a lump of some sort of rock, with the gemstone crystal attached to it, or they can mine river gravel. Sometimes the river gravels will be many meters below the surface of the ground, and they have to remove the over-burden before they actually get to the gem bearing deposit. Sometimes erosion over thousands of years will remove the over-burden, and you find the gemstones sitting on top of the earth, so its just a matter of the fossicker wandering around and picking up the rough. Sometimes you need to pan for them. I've seen some miners with big vacuum cleaner-like pumps, and they suck the gravel off the bottom of the river and run it down a sluice. There's a lot of ways to mine or fossick for gemstones and for semi-precious stones, but currently here in Australia, I believe all the big operations are doing dry mining and removing over-burden to get at the gravels of long-gone rivers. Semi-precious stones like agates and jasper you can often just pick up off the ground. I live on a lake and frequently go for a walk around the edge of the lake, occasionally I've picked up jasper and agate at the lakes edge. I even found a decent little agate in my backyard a couple of years ago. But to get back to ruby. I've been out of gemstone dealing for more than 30 years now, but even 30 years ago, in fact even 50 years ago, it was very, very difficult to buy good ruby faceting material, my understanding is that these days it has gone from difficult to impossible. So what some dealers are doing is buying up old jewellery and remounting the stone. They particularly want bigger stones, because then they can make one big stone into two smaller ones, and it seems that this gives a higher profit. This recut thing is not unknown in gemological circles. There was a diamond called the Tavernier Blue that first appeared in France in the 17th century. It came from India, and it was sold to the French ruler, after which it was known as the French Blue. In the 1790's it was stolen from the crown jewels and recut into the Hope diamond, so it would not be recognised, the smaller part of the Tavernier was recut and made into a ring for the wife of a Russian Emperor (Paul I?) To get back to rubies. Yes, at the pasar level in Jawa all red stones that can easily be confused with rubies are called "mirah". In Javanese the word 'mirah' means both 'red' and 'ruby'. However, in Indonesian the correct name for ruby is 'mirah delima', or even 'batu delima'. Indonesian dealers in antiques and precious stones tend to take advantage of this potentially confusing situation. The good, reputable jewellers do not work the buyer like this and mostly they refer to ruby as 'ruby', so there is no confusion, but in the pasars anything that's red gets called 'mirah'. I used to sell a lot of chrysoprase to wholesalers in Bali and Central Jawa. This stuff got cut into Chinese looking stones and mostly mounted in Chinese looking gold jewellery. When it hit the marketplace it was called "Hong Kong Jade". True jade it very hard, you will not mark it with a sharp knife. Chrysoprase is very soft and easily scratched, and of course only a fraction the value of jade.