Kora

estcrh · 1st May 2016, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

The Wide World Magazine is probably not the best source of factual and reliable information.

Ian

Ian, I do not doubt that, but the image was published in The Wide World Magazine, 1898 so I am not sure how it could be claimed as an 1903 durbar image, one date is wrong.

ariel · 1st May 2016, 02:49 AM

Estrch,

Might well be a Durbar-type costume: staged picture or theatrical costume.
Just like the Kora.
If they were connected in some capacity to the Durbar pageant, they would have antiquarian value; if not, they would be worth the cost of materials.

But still, admit it, the journalist mentioning Gilbert and Sullivan defined this costume very well:-)

estcrh · 1st May 2016, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Estrch,

Might well be a Durbar-type costume: staged picture or theatrical costume.
Just like the Kora.
If they were connected in some capacity to the Durbar pageant, they would have antiquarian value; if not, they would be worth the cost of materials.

But still, admit it, the journalist mentioning Gilbert and Sullivan defined this costume very well:-)

Ariel, we would just be speculating, it could just as well be an older type of armor that has been re-purposed, when it comes to Indian armor and weapons you just never know, which is why I have an interest in them over lets say American civil war weapons. Here is a similar example, this spiked armor is said to be Siberian bear hunting armor...is it...could be, maybe not, without further info I can not comment further. Maybe the spiked Indian armor was originally used for hunting dangerous animals or some sort of blood sport between fighters, who can say for sure??

Quote:

The object is being called a Siberian bear-hunting suit,
but I suspect it is more likely to be for bear baiting than hunting,
since I can't imagine anyone could run around the woods in it. It
consists of leather pants and jacket (and an iron helmet) studded
all over with 1-inch iron nails about 3/4 in. apart. The nails are
held in place by a second layer of leather lining the whole thing
and quilted into place between the nails.

ariel · 1st May 2016, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here is a similar example, this spiked armor is said to be Siberian bear hunting armor...is it...could be, maybe not, without further info I can not comment further. Maybe the spiked Indian armor was originally used for hunting dangerous animals or some sort of blood sport between fighters, who can say for sure??

Now I know where the idea for the Pinhead from "Hellraiser" came from.

My son, who is a horror movie encyclopedia, also mentioned a Russian movie by some budding Fellini named Andrei Iskanov titled "Nails".
Seems hammering nails into the head might be a national Siberian pastime.
You know, a bottle of vodka, a pickle, some body piercing with 9 inch brights ... and off we go to get us a bear:-))))

estcrh · 1st May 2016, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Now I know where the idea for the Pinhead from "Hellraiser" came from.

My son, who is a horror movie encyclopedia, also mentioned a Russian movie by some budding Fellini named Andrei Iskanov titled "Nails".
Seems hammering nails into the head might be a national Siberian pastime.
You know, a bottle of vodka, a pickle, some body piercing with 9 inch brights ... and off we go to get us a bear:-))))

There is a precedent for spikes being used against animals in India, there are examples of spiked doors being used to keep elephants from breaking them down and below is a picture of what is said to be a spiked ball used to hang in the door of elephant stables to keep the elephants from leaving. The "executioners armor" could have been originally for tiger hunting or fighting with wild animals, a known sport in some parts of India.

David · 1st May 2016, 06:32 PM

You guys are cracking me up with all these photos of spiky things.
It seems that the prevailing wisdom here is that if we can prove that there really was were spiky armor (and walls and balls) in India at the time we can prove what, exactly, about the kora presented here???

I find it amazing that this image of the "High Executioner" in his spiked armor is creating so much controversy here.
FACT: This image of the "High Executioner" was indeed published in The Wide World Magazine edition of June, 1898. So i am sorry Oliver, your source for this photo is simply wrong. It may have been printed later in National Geographic and purported to be from the 1903 Delhi Durbar, but that information would be completely incorrect, barring the possibility of a time a traveling photographer

. There is just no way that it could have been taken at the Delhi Durbar in 1903. Ariel started this whole Durbar red herring early on in this thread due to what i can only suspect was a misunderstanding of what was presented in Oliver's book and it has, IMVHO, squashed any real analysis of this kora ever since, becoming little more than a rematch for old adversaries to trade barbs and sarcasm. I have now looked at many very interesting photos of these Durbar spectacles and read all the offerings of speculation from all sides and have still not seen one single shred of evidence that could possibly link this kora to that historic event, either as a ceremonial weapon carried in processions or even as a cheap souvenir bought in one of the bazaars that would be surrounding a grand Durbar.
Look, i realize this is not an academic, scholarly forum, despite the fact that we do indeed have academics and scholars in our membership. But this whole Durbar thing is just and incredible flight of fancy as far as i can tell. Speculation is fine, but it needs some basis of justification. Instead we are spending our time debating a photo of a guy in a porcupine suit of armor and trying to connect it falsely to the Delhi Durbar as some kind of proof that this kora could still be a ceremonial weapon from the same Durbar that this executioner photo is NOT from because if it is (which it is NOT) then it somehow proves that cheap, decorative weapons might also be used in ceremonies at the Durbar??? Welcome to bizarre world.

Let me remind everyone of the what Oliver did write when he appeared briefly in this thread.
"Delhi Durbar weapons are usually very well made, but not always. Some were actually carried or worn to the Durbar itself by the nobility. Others were carried by lesser attendees. And still others were offered for sale to guests to commemorate their visit, either in the bazaars or hotels; the range of quality from one to the next is enormous."
"Durbar weapons are usually very well made..." It is amazing to me that some people could then latch onto the "but not always" and use that as some justification that this kora could possible be anything other than a wall hanger.
I must say that this thread has been very entertaining and in many ways informative, but i do feel that it has failed in it's obligation to inform the original poster anything of much use about the kora he brought forward for discussion.

mahratt · 1st May 2016, 07:10 PM

David, thank you for a reasonable words.

ariel · 1st May 2016, 07:40 PM

David,
I think you are missing the point: nobody here claims that this Kora is anything but decorative.
The Durbars, especially the 1903 one were giant fairs, with real Rajas and their legitimate retinues , but also with vast logistical and commercial establishments and opportunities.
Here is a text from Wiki about Lord Curzon brilliant administrative achievements:
"The two full weeks of festivities were devised in meticulous detail by Lord Curzon.[5] It was a dazzling display of pomp, power and split second timing. Neither the earlier Delhi Durbar of 1877, nor the later Durbar held there in 1911, could match the pageantry of Lord Curzon’s 1903 festivities. In a few short months at the end of 1902, a deserted plain was transformed into an elaborate tented city, complete with temporary light railway to bring crowds of spectators out from Delhi, a post office with its own stamp, telephone and telegraphic facilities, a variety of stores, a Police force with specially designed uniform, hospital, magistrate’s court and complex sanitation, drainage and electric light installations. Souvenir guide books were sold and maps of the camping ground distributed. Marketing opportunities were craftily exploited. Special medals known as Delhi Durbar Medals, were struck, firework displays, exhibitions and glamorous dances held."

If we accept veracity of Oliver's information about the pattern of decorative work ( and I have no doubt he knows what he is talking about), as well as the inevitable range of quality, the plausibility of this Kora coming from the rock-bottom layer of the Durbar " marketing opportunities ...craftily exploited" becomes not far-fetched.
Not finding it among long-distance images of the throngs of participants and visitors is not an argument that it was not there ( or was not sold from some peripheral bazaar stand): I am certain that even some Rajas cannot be found on these "Where is Elmo?" photographs.

Once again: absense of evidence is not evidence of absense.

So the point is simple: yes, it is ceremonial, commemorative, theatrical, decorative, souvenir ( choose any definition). If it participated in the pageant or even sold as a souvenir there , it still has historical value. If not, it is just a clumsy piece of metal not worth much culturally, historically of financially.

The hooker is, we shall never know for certain.......

1st May 2016, 02:49 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Estrch, Might well be a Durbar-type costume: staged picture or theatrical costume. Just like the Kora. If they were connected in some capacity to the Durbar pageant, they would have antiquarian value; if not, they would be worth the cost of materials. But still, admit it, the journalist mentioning Gilbert and Sullivan defined this costume very well:-)

1st May 2016, 06:32 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	You guys are cracking me up with all these photos of spiky things. It seems that the prevailing wisdom here is that if we can prove that there really was were spiky armor (and walls and balls) in India at the time we can prove what, exactly, about the kora presented here??? I find it amazing that this image of the "High Executioner" in his spiked armor is creating so much controversy here. FACT: This image of the "High Executioner" was indeed published in The Wide World Magazine edition of June, 1898. So i am sorry Oliver, your source for this photo is simply wrong. It may have been printed later in National Geographic and purported to be from the 1903 Delhi Durbar, but that information would be completely incorrect, barring the possibility of a time a traveling photographer . There is just no way that it could have been taken at the Delhi Durbar in 1903. Ariel started this whole Durbar red herring early on in this thread due to what i can only suspect was a misunderstanding of what was presented in Oliver's book and it has, IMVHO, squashed any real analysis of this kora ever since, becoming little more than a rematch for old adversaries to trade barbs and sarcasm. I have now looked at many very interesting photos of these Durbar spectacles and read all the offerings of speculation from all sides and have still not seen one single shred of evidence that could possibly link this kora to that historic event, either as a ceremonial weapon carried in processions or even as a cheap souvenir bought in one of the bazaars that would be surrounding a grand Durbar. Look, i realize this is not an academic, scholarly forum, despite the fact that we do indeed have academics and scholars in our membership. But this whole Durbar thing is just and incredible flight of fancy as far as i can tell. Speculation is fine, but it needs some basis of justification. Instead we are spending our time debating a photo of a guy in a porcupine suit of armor and trying to connect it falsely to the Delhi Durbar as some kind of proof that this kora could still be a ceremonial weapon from the same Durbar that this executioner photo is NOT from because if it is (which it is NOT) then it somehow proves that cheap, decorative weapons might also be used in ceremonies at the Durbar??? Welcome to bizarre world. Let me remind everyone of the what Oliver did write when he appeared briefly in this thread. "Delhi Durbar weapons are usually very well made, but not always. Some were actually carried or worn to the Durbar itself by the nobility. Others were carried by lesser attendees. And still others were offered for sale to guests to commemorate their visit, either in the bazaars or hotels; the range of quality from one to the next is enormous." "Durbar weapons are usually very well made..." It is amazing to me that some people could then latch onto the "but not always" and use that as some justification that this kora could possible be anything other than a wall hanger. I must say that this thread has been very entertaining and in many ways informative, but i do feel that it has failed in it's obligation to inform the original poster anything of much use about the kora he brought forward for discussion.

1st May 2016, 07:10 PM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	David, thank you for a reasonable words.

1st May 2016, 07:40 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	David, I think you are missing the point: nobody here claims that this Kora is anything but decorative. The Durbars, especially the 1903 one were giant fairs, with real Rajas and their legitimate retinues , but also with vast logistical and commercial establishments and opportunities. Here is a text from Wiki about Lord Curzon brilliant administrative achievements: "The two full weeks of festivities were devised in meticulous detail by Lord Curzon.[5] It was a dazzling display of pomp, power and split second timing. Neither the earlier Delhi Durbar of 1877, nor the later Durbar held there in 1911, could match the pageantry of Lord Curzon’s 1903 festivities. In a few short months at the end of 1902, a deserted plain was transformed into an elaborate tented city, complete with temporary light railway to bring crowds of spectators out from Delhi, a post office with its own stamp, telephone and telegraphic facilities, a variety of stores, a Police force with specially designed uniform, hospital, magistrate’s court and complex sanitation, drainage and electric light installations. Souvenir guide books were sold and maps of the camping ground distributed. Marketing opportunities were craftily exploited. Special medals known as Delhi Durbar Medals, were struck, firework displays, exhibitions and glamorous dances held." If we accept veracity of Oliver's information about the pattern of decorative work ( and I have no doubt he knows what he is talking about), as well as the inevitable range of quality, the plausibility of this Kora coming from the rock-bottom layer of the Durbar " marketing opportunities ...craftily exploited" becomes not far-fetched. Not finding it among long-distance images of the throngs of participants and visitors is not an argument that it was not there ( or was not sold from some peripheral bazaar stand): I am certain that even some Rajas cannot be found on these "Where is Elmo?" photographs. Once again: absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. So the point is simple: yes, it is ceremonial, commemorative, theatrical, decorative, souvenir ( choose any definition). If it participated in the pageant or even sold as a souvenir there , it still has historical value. If not, it is just a clumsy piece of metal not worth much culturally, historically of financially. The hooker is, we shall never know for certain.......