Kora

[ariel]

[QUOTE=Mercenary]As I remember the rulers of Bengal were muslims. I do not think that on the Durbar of Bengal court such the Hindu weapon could be used. It is just the unjustified fantasies which lead to false conclusions.[/QUOTE/]

Last Delhi Durbar occurred in 1911. At that time Bengal was a defined historico-geographical unit.

One should not confuse historical Bengal and Bangladesh:-))))

West Bengal was Hindi and stayed in India in 1947. Muslim East Bengal became Bangladesh.

Historical Hindi West Bengal , Assam etc directly border or are in the vicinity of Nepal. Muslim East Bengal is almost Burma.


As a matter of fact, when Nepal became independent after WWI it retained some old Bengal kingdoms.

Plenty of Hindi Koras in historical Bengal:-)))

[Mercenary]

[QUOTE=ariel]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

As I remember the rulers of Bengal were muslims. I do not think that on the Durbar of Bengal court such the Hindu weapon could be used. It is just the unjustified fantasies which lead to false conclusions.[/QUOTE/]

Last Delhi Durbar occurred in 1911. At that time Bengal was a defined historico-geographical unit.

One should not confuse historical Bengal and Bangladesh:-))))

West Bengal was Hindi and stayed in India in 1947. Muslim East Bengal became Bangladesh.

Historical Hindi West Bengal , Assam etc directly border or are in the vicinity of Nepal. Muslim East Bengal is almost Burma.


As a matter of fact, when Nepal became independent after WWI it retained some old Bengal kingdoms.

Plenty of Hindi Koras in historical Bengal:-)))

What was it? Read this for a start:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Ali_Mirza
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasif_Ali_Mirza
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waris_Ali_Mirza
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...lers_of_Bengal

[ariel]

[QUOTE=Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

What was it? Read this for a start:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Ali_Mirza
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasif_Ali_Mirza
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waris_Ali_Mirza
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...lers_of_Bengal

These references do not talk about weapons.
And a gentle reminder: 1. Religion of a ruler at a certain period of history does not always reflect religion of a large number of his subjects; 2. Religion of a ruler does not alway reflect the type of weaponry his military uses.

To wit:

I thought we were talking about Kora as a Bengali weapon, weren't we?

Suggest to read Elgood's glossary in his book on Indian arms, re. Bughalee ( p. 238) and Kora ( p.252)
Even Mughals might used it. Sharp steel is sharp steel :-;

[Mercenary]

1. Religion of a ruler at a certain period of history does not always reflect religion of a large number of his subjects; 2. Religion of a ruler does not alway reflect the type of weaponry his military uses. To wit: I thought we were talking about Kora as a Bengali weapon, weren't we?

You told about official Durbar, aren't you? You as always very quickly change your opinion.

Suggest to read Elgood's glossary in his book on Indian arms, re. Bughalee ( p. 238) and Kora ( p.252) Even Mughals might used it. Sharp steel is sharp steel :-;

How from this follows that the subject is muslim's?

You should be careful to give advice to novice collectors. This may render them a poor service, as has already happened some times.

[ariel]

The Siberian Tag Team at work:-)))))

Please, both of you, try to read carefully and think before you fire up your responses. Then, hopefully, you will be able to understand thing better. Example: Elgood's notes are not directed at proving that Bengalis were Muslim. They prove that Kora was a Bengali weapon, too.

In general, your comments bore and annoy me.
Please ignore my posts as I am trying to ignore yours.


OK?

[mahratt]

It is a good idea - to offer to ignore the message. Especially when you can not answer the questions that you ask

[Jim McDougall]

LOL!!!
You guys are amazing!! Why ignore each other?

This thread IS a durbar!!!!! A festival of hilarity in these barbs and inuendos filled with theatrical and entertaining performances, and bringing in a scope of topics, subject matter of amazing dimension, presented in wonderfully creative scenes.

As this gala thread unfolds , it is amazing to have revealing and informative courses in English, geopolitical history, cultural studies, theosophy and even photographic history and theory among others I may have overlooked.

Mahratt, may I say your English is vastly improving as you bring in new words as well as edification on others such as 'kitsch' and even your astute understanding of the 'word play' on 'posing' etc.

As always, Estcrh you are remarkable in posting these sources and added images!!!! Fascinating notes on this type of armor, I thought Ian was using the term 'elephant' as metaphorical referring to the size of this guy
In any case, there are of course cases of various armor used in India (Rajputs?) which were referred to as 'coat of nails'. I doubt that they had these huge spikes, but who knows.......after all, this IS from a DURBAR

Sometime in the past, around the early part of this thread I mentioned koras of this form (I think that was the thread topic if memory serves)..were used in ritual (sacrifice of doves). I will rely on the edification of the word smiths here to determine if that might be considered 'ceremonial'.

Is the form Bengali? Some examples are, but the kora is 'believed; to be effectively Nepalese.
Now, I am unsure whether there were border check points to ensure that
these forms were not diffused into either region.

[ariel]

David,
Nobody ever claimed here that this particular Kora was actual armament of a royal retinue. Nor was a claim introduced that this particular Kora was even a commemorative piece sold at the Durbar pageant.

The only thing that was said, that according to Oliver, weapons of similar decorative motives were manufactured en masse for Delhi Durbars.

For some reasons, some people misinterpreted ( misread? misunderstood?) the meaning of this statement, took it as an categorical claim about the posted Kora and started a pseudo-academic Jihad , demanding documented and photographic proof affirming the idea nobody here ever advanced.

Please re-read my posts ## 9 and 24 and try to find a single statement that was misleading Panzerraptor or anybody else about historical, artistic or commercial value of the Kora.

Once again, I think that a question asked by a novice deserves truthful, informative and respectful answer. No sarcasm. No snarks. And that was exactly I and Jim tried to convey.

[Jim McDougall]

Panzerraptor,
In hopes you are still here!!!
I would like to point out the kind of excitement, drama, controversy, discussion, debate and all manner of dynamics which are brought out by even the most simple of weapons being collected.

You can see the diversity of perspectives, interests, and views being expressed here with the focus being on just what this particular weapon was, and what sort of history might have surrounded it.

Here we have individuals with expertise in a number of fields of arms, some who have studied academically and authored books, some who have written and are amidst finishing other articles on many topics. Even as the subject of photographic evidence is brought into the discussion, we have the benefit of professional photography experience to add to the dimension of our adding that into the equation.
We have English critique to examine the proper words or terms to use in describing some of the circumstances involved in our investigative discussion.

But above all, we have history, so you see how important weapons can be as virtual icons of the times, events and people in which they came from!

While you began a thread with wonderfully posed questions about the collecting of arms, what you have here is a fully dynamic exercise in exactly what collecting weapons is all about!
It is an adventure which becomes lifelong, and 'monumentally' (if the right word exciting!!!!!
WELCOME TO OUR WORLD!!! Glad to have you here.

All best regards
Jim

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

Please re-read my posts ## 9 and 24 and try to find a single statement that was misleading Panzerraptor or anybody else about historical, artistic or commercial value of the Kora.

I can assure you Ariel that it is not necessary for me to re-read any of your posts since i have already read yours and everyone else's on this thread 5 or 6 times. But please feel free to re-read my posts as i don't believe any of them have accused you of misleading anybody.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by David

I can assure you Ariel that it is not necessary for me to re-read any of your posts since i have already read yours and everyone else's on this thread 5 or 6 times. But please feel free to re-read my posts as i don't believe any of them have accused you of misleading anybody.

Of course, not.

You understood it very well.
Others, obviously, either relied too much on Google translator ( charitable interpretation) or had some other agenda in mind. Well, to each his own:-)

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Others, obviously, either relied too much on Google translator ( charitable interpretation) or had some other agenda in mind. Well, to each his own:-)

Dear Ariel, please tell me which of your phrases not correctly translated Google translator?

Originally Posted by ariel

They are ceremonial.

You say that swords (similar Kora, which we are discussing) - ceremonial. I understand correctly?

I understand that it can not be proven?

Originally Posted by ariel

Panzerraptor,
They might have been produced as tourist items, but Oliver Pinchot in his book of the late R. Wagner collection had shown a khanda with very similar decorations. In his comment, items of such decorative abundance were produced for the Dehli durbars ( 1877,1903,1911), all-India assemblies at the coronations of British Kings, them being also The Emperors of India. Every Rajah brought a retinue armed to the teeth with very "show-y" weapons.

You say that swords (similar Kora, which we are discussing) - can be souvenirs. But, quoting the book of respected Oliver Pinchot, refuting his same thoughts.

At the same time we have seen that in the book - just a personal opinion respected Oliver. And unfortunately, this view is not supported by historical sources ....

Originally Posted by ariel

...these shields and kora reflect prevailing trends in Indian arms culture of that time.

Do you honestly think that these items (such as those that we are discussing), once considered India as a weapon ????))))))

Cultural traditions such swords, too, do not reflect. Or do you think otherwise?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Nobody ever claimed here that this particular Kora was actual armament of a royal retinue. Nor was a claim introduced that this particular Kora was even a commemorative piece sold at the Durbar pageant.

The only thing that was said, that according to Oliver, weapons of similar decorative motives were manufactured en masse for Delhi Durbars.

For some reasons, some people misinterpreted ( misread? misunderstood?) the meaning of this statement, took it as an categorical claim about the posted Kora and started a pseudo-academic Jihad , demanding documented and photographic proof affirming the idea nobody here ever advanced.

Please re-read my posts ## 9 and 24 and try to find a single statement that was misleading Panzerraptor or anybody else about historical, artistic or commercial value of the Kora.

Once again, I think that a question asked by a novice deserves truthful, informative and respectful answer. No sarcasm. No snarks. And that was exactly I and Jim tried to convey.

I do not understand why play with facts? You wrote:

Originally Posted by ariel

These items date from the end of 19 to the beginning of 20 century. They are ceremonial. They might have been produced as tourist items, but Oliver Pinchot in his book of the late R. Wagner collection had shown a khanda with very similar decorations. In his comment, items of such decorative abundance were produced for the Dehli durbars ( 1877,1903,1911), all-India assemblies at the coronations of British Kings, them being also The Emperors of India. Every Rajah brought a retinue armed to the teeth with very "show-y" weapons. Theatrical? Historical? Depends on the point of view of a collector.

Unless you are specifically interested in the battle-proven weapons, these shields and kora reflect prevailing trends in Indian arms culture of that time.

It now appears that there is no documentary evidence that such swords (as we discuss) worn on the Durbar. Moreover such swords - it is not "part of Indian culture." It - kitsch.

But in the absence of evidence to support "the version that these swords were made for Durbar", conversations were reduced to thinking "posed" thousands of people in the photo or not

Some forgotten that those who "posed" no such swords (which we are discussing).

[Mercenary]

Dima, relax. The rare kora of Durbar of Bengal court. Don't upset people.