A Question on Collecting

[RobertGuy]

Not all new made swords are replicas. A newly commissioned katana from a Japanese smith is a katana, no more no less. British Army Officers still buy new made swords to carry on parade. Ceremonial items... yes. Made of stainless steel... sometines. Still real swords not replicas. I like to classify swords in this way:
1.Genuine. A functional sword made and used in the way it always has been. Does not have to be old.
2. Antique/vintage. An old genuine sword, originally issued and used as intended. May now be too delicate or valuable to be anything other than an object of study or admiration.
3.Replica. A sword made to look similar to a genuine sword. May be made of different materials or constructed differently to a genuine sword, Does not have to be functional, Many swords purchased by reenactors fall into this category.;
4. Recreation. A modern made functioning sword that reproduces the look and feel of ancient blades. Can vary a lot in quality but many modern smiths are producing custom work of the finest quality. These allow mere mortals to handle swords that are normally only seen in relic condition in museums.
6. Fantasy. Modern made funtional swords made to non traditional designs. Often based around blades appearing in films or novels. Quality can range from diabolial to superb.
5. Fake. A sword sold with the intention raising more money from the purchaser by deception. A good replica swords is nor a fake until someone tries to sell it as genuine or antique.
6. Genuine fake . I have added this one to my categories to cater for Japanese gimie blades. Genuine antique katans but with a fake signature often added by the original smith to increase value. Can be valuable in their own right.
Happy collecting

[Lee]

A most interesting thread indeed!

Modern bladesmiths do produce some fantastic work, very often surpassing antiques in terms of functional capability as well as fit and finish. I surely like Kronckew's short sword pictured above; such high quality work surely qualifies as art and should appreciate or hold its value (though these should be secondary concerns to a collector).

I have never had a huge 'war chest' of cash to pursue the collecting hobby, though I have probably been more fortunate than many. In order not to be overwhelmed, I would apply blinders and focus on something specific, though the collection shows evidence of too many diversions from when I found quality where I was not looking. One of the things that attracts me to this field of collecting is the incredible ingenuity that craftsmen 'before science' applied to overcome their often inferior materials and lack of scientific understanding of what was really going on. The antiques also, for me, carry a cachet of being from and part of a time when edged weapons were truly culturally relevant.

But, in the end, one should collect what personally thrills one's self and not what others tell them that they should like. If such items become a good investment, that should be 'icing on the cake' for the collector's estate.

[Rich]

Lee said:

"But, in the end, one should collect what personally thrills one's self and not what others tell them that they should like. If such items become a good investment, that should be 'icing on the cake' for the collector's estate."

Agree 100%; collect what you like, but like what you collect.

Rich

[drac2k]

All very valid points, however antique weapons are still plentiful at reasonable prices! It will require study, knowledge,and work.Auctions, estate sales, garage sales, gun and militaria shows, antique sales,epay, etc..If it looks like too good, it probably is a bad investment, but not always.This is where learned experience, study, and putting your hands on it first will pay dividends.
Part of the learning curb, will be getting burned ; don't get mad, just keep it, study it and learn from it .

[Battara]

Greetings Panzerraptor. Here are my thoughts:

1. First rule of thumb: collect what you like.

2. As far as market value is concerned, that is a different question. Example: a custom knife maker makes a dagger replicating a Persian kard vs one found at HSN, then the custom piece is more valuable as a rule due to the better quality, craftsmanship, rarity, etc.

However, an original Persian kard vs a custom made replica, usually the original one would be worth more.

Again these are generalities assuming that the condition of the original one is near perfect and the quality and craftsmanship is superb.

This does not take into account demand pressures on the antique weaponry and custom knife markets. Plus, some folks like custom stuff only for the artwork, some the antique stuff for that plus the history.

Although this is more to this, these are the bare bones basic tenets that I see.

Clear as mud?

[Jim McDougall]

EXCELLENT TOPIC!!!!!
And well posed question, very glad you are with us Panzerraptor !

Collectors are truly a breed unto themselves, and quite honestly, everyone collects for their own reasons and based on their own interests and passions...which easily become obsessions. You could not have come to a better place to ask this, as here there are legions of well seasoned and incredibly knowledgeable participants.

While I am personally a historian and researcher, I did collect for most of my life (I am now 70), so can truly say I have studied arms and their histories for over 50 years. That being the case, I can also say, I feel as though I have barely scratched the surface of the amazing stories these weapons have to tell.

As a young collector I could not afford the high quality and condition of many weapons, and usually ended up with well worn, rough quality items usually passed over by collectors. This served me perfectly, as I wanted to learn FROM the weapons, and discover who used them, where might they have been, why were there certain features as opposed to others?

If you use the search feature here on our forum, you will find amazing discussions where these kinds of details were shared and learned...I have always been proud of the things we all learned TOGETHER here. I have written here as many have for nearing 20 years....so imagine the archives we have compiled!

For example.......you mention the flyssa......an absolutely fascinating form, and classic example of the quintessant representation of a culture....the Kabyles tribes of Berbers in Algeria. What was discovered in our research on these years ago was that the form itself probably evolved from Ottoman yataghans of earlier form with straight, deep bellied blade . The earliest positive reference we have to a 'flyssa' was 1827, but the term was not coined until around that time (French term referring to the Iflisen tribe who was early aligned with these). The earliest example I found was provenance from c 1857 from capture in campaign in French Foreign Legion museum.

Therefore, while not necessarily 'old' chronologically, this sword is perfectly representative of a key ethnographic form, and 'of the type' used by the Kabyles in their conflicts with French colonial forces.

In many cases ethnographically, tribal peoples and many cultures still value the forms of weapons they have used traditionally for many years, often centuries. So will we see these often 'modern' weapons produced by these people as reproductions, or fasified? Not always, though many are indeed produced to satisfy the desire for souveniers.

For a sword enthusiast, who studies the actual use and methods of swordsmanship involved with these weapons, a collection might include both vintage and modern examples.

For purists who assemble only vintage examples to display the various forms in associated groupings and variations, they would abhor the idea of modern reproductions naturally.

For historians, myself included, we cannot gain any knowledge from that aspect from a modern weapon, as we look for answers in patination, markings of the times, damage or alterations which might have resulted during certain historic events, influences reflecting changes in the culture or context regionally by intertribal, colonial or other incursion etc.
Therefore, reproductions or modern copies null those purposes.

My advice to any new collector, and for me it is most exciting to welcome you and all who enter these ranks, is emphatically:
The most important weapon you will collect, is knowledge!
Study, learn, remember......then buy.

Follow your heart and your own passions and interests in deciding what will be part of your holdings, collect for yourself.....not others.

Never restrain from asking questions, or sharing thoughts or ideas, especially here . There is merit in every one of them, in one degree or another. We are all a team, and the goal is to learn.

Thank you for asking this one!!!

Well done!

Jim

[Battara]

Well elaborated Jim!