A Question on Collecting

silberschatzimsee · 26th April 2016, 08:56 PM

I still don't own any weapon

but for me collecting new 'replicas' is not an option. I prefer to stay without anything rather than haveing something contemporary.

Off course should I want to participate in reenactments or similiar festivities I would go for the modern stuff, but then I wouldn't consider them collectibles but tools which can be heavily used without takeing too much cautions about their wear down.

So I am still waiting for the right object to stumble upon but that's part of the game when collecting.

ariel · 26th April 2016, 10:38 PM

There are as many collections as there are collectors.
Each one collects what he (or she) wants and there are no rules or objective criteria to judge the validity of reasons for collecting any particular category of objects.
Come to think of it, there are some strange people who collect beer labels, old coins, watches, Faberge eggs, antique cars, mistresses, and ( horror, horror!) .... stamps! :-))))

Bob A · 27th April 2016, 04:43 AM

As I see it, there is a basic choice to be made, whether to focus on examples which were made, and used, within a period in which their use was the norm, or to support the continuance of a traditional art and craft, so that it might not be lost.

Either, or both, are worthy of effort and expenditure of personal treasure, in my opinion.

The making of objects which are visual and perhaps functional replicas of weapons from days gone by, for the purpose of studying techniques of their use in the period for which they were intended, is also worthwhile.

Making objects, however artfully, with the purpose to deceive, is less worthy a practice. However, I can even see a certain utility in forming a collection of deliberate fakes and forgeries, so long as it is represented as such.

Stuff made as souvenirs for tourists has the value of supporting the maker, and pleasing the tourist. I can't see collecting it, myself, but tastes differ. I knew someone who collected schlocky ashtrays from the places she visited; she derived much pleasure from this.

I don't see that I've added anything of value to this discussion, alas; nor have I closed any doors. With 8,000,000,000 people extant, more or less, there's plenty of room for variety.

As Aleister Crowley, described as "England's worst man", put it, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law".

(I think England produces the best eccentrics).

Tim Simmons · 27th April 2016, 07:11 AM

Very good topic. This link covers some of your questions. It is not about swords but the same argument applies. Many fine words about good new art as opposed to bad new art, and who is to say who can make art {no different to swords} These comments all seem to be from collector dealers or dealer collectors????

http://www.newguineaart.com/png-art.php

Something I would add from my own experience: try selling or exchanging a good new piece to a dealer, sadly their opinions I have found are somewhat different to the fine words.

If you have the money to collect fine new pieces as in this other link then fine. If you have not you probably get better pieces and value from old to antique. Not only do you get a nice thing at sometimes sensible prices but also history. I know where my interest is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x5WzIu5iXU

A really good documentery understanding modern sword collecting.

kronckew · 27th April 2016, 08:36 AM

see also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX9IF4v3RdU&spfreload=5

today's 'new' sword is tomorrow's antique.

my first 'real' sword was a USCG officer's sword required for my dress uniform. modern frangible stainless, barely a sword, a sword in name only. but gold plated and pretty enough for a parade, pass-in-review or a wedding. not really a weapon, but a statement. i had no real love for it.

i bought my first samurai sword in the 1980's on a visit to japan on the way home from saudi arabia to the USA. it was made a year or so before by one of the then two japanese master swordsmiths designated as 'living treasures', using traditional materials and techniques and cost me a small fortune. had to wait an extra week to get a permit from the govt. there to export it. reproduction? sadly stolen from the relative i left it with while i worked overseas. ther arte some very good smiths out there turning out just as good a weapon as the old stuff.

some new swords are junk, some decent place-holders, some just as good if not better than those of the past. beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all, some here will not touch anything less than a few hundred years old. some are more flexible & eclectic. to each his own.

i cannot now afford the expensive fancy gold plated and bejewelled sharp pointies beloved by many, and make do with the old warhorses that slip thru the cracks, a few sharp modern swords and axes that just might do when the solar flares knock out our modern world.

i'll likely carry this hungarian one (attached), along with a longer sharp pointy or two. too modern for most here, it's got 40 layers of twisted C10+90MnCrV8 top + C10 serrated middle part + 90MnCrV8 serrated cutting edge. i think this will be one of tomorrow's antiques. new isn't necessarily bad, tho this forum is mostly for discussion of the older vintage and antique arms rather than ones that may be in use even as i type somewhere in the world...

RobertGuy · 27th April 2016, 08:48 AM

Not all new made swords are replicas. A newly commissioned katana from a Japanese smith is a katana, no more no less. British Army Officers still buy new made swords to carry on parade. Ceremonial items... yes. Made of stainless steel... sometines. Still real swords not replicas. I like to classify swords in this way:
1.Genuine. A functional sword made and used in the way it always has been. Does not have to be old.
2. Antique/vintage. An old genuine sword, originally issued and used as intended. May now be too delicate or valuable to be anything other than an object of study or admiration.
3.Replica. A sword made to look similar to a genuine sword. May be made of different materials or constructed differently to a genuine sword, Does not have to be functional, Many swords purchased by reenactors fall into this category.;
4. Recreation. A modern made functioning sword that reproduces the look and feel of ancient blades. Can vary a lot in quality but many modern smiths are producing custom work of the finest quality. These allow mere mortals to handle swords that are normally only seen in relic condition in museums.
6. Fantasy. Modern made funtional swords made to non traditional designs. Often based around blades appearing in films or novels. Quality can range from diabolial to superb.
5. Fake. A sword sold with the intention raising more money from the purchaser by deception. A good replica swords is nor a fake until someone tries to sell it as genuine or antique.
6. Genuine fake

. I have added this one to my categories to cater for Japanese gimie blades. Genuine antique katans but with a fake signature often added by the original smith to increase value. Can be valuable in their own right.
Happy collecting

Lee · 27th April 2016, 12:37 PM

A most interesting thread indeed!

Modern bladesmiths do produce some fantastic work, very often surpassing antiques in terms of functional capability as well as fit and finish. I surely like Kronckew's short sword pictured above; such high quality work surely qualifies as art and should appreciate or hold its value (though these should be secondary concerns to a collector).

I have never had a huge 'war chest' of cash to pursue the collecting hobby, though I have probably been more fortunate than many. In order not to be overwhelmed, I would apply blinders and focus on something specific, though the collection shows evidence of too many diversions from when I found quality where I was not looking. One of the things that attracts me to this field of collecting is the incredible ingenuity that craftsmen 'before science' applied to overcome their often inferior materials and lack of scientific understanding of what was really going on. The antiques also, for me, carry a cachet of being from and part of a time when edged weapons were truly culturally relevant.

But, in the end, one should collect what personally thrills one's self and not what others tell them that they should like. If such items become a good investment, that should be 'icing on the cake' for the collector's estate.

Rich · 27th April 2016, 01:18 PM

Lee said:

"But, in the end, one should collect what personally thrills one's self and not what others tell them that they should like. If such items become a good investment, that should be 'icing on the cake' for the collector's estate."

Agree 100%; collect what you like, but like what you collect.

Rich

27th April 2016, 08:36 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	see also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX9IF4v3RdU&spfreload=5 today's 'new' sword is tomorrow's antique. my first 'real' sword was a USCG officer's sword required for my dress uniform. modern frangible stainless, barely a sword, a sword in name only. but gold plated and pretty enough for a parade, pass-in-review or a wedding. not really a weapon, but a statement. i had no real love for it. i bought my first samurai sword in the 1980's on a visit to japan on the way home from saudi arabia to the USA. it was made a year or so before by one of the then two japanese master swordsmiths designated as 'living treasures', using traditional materials and techniques and cost me a small fortune. had to wait an extra week to get a permit from the govt. there to export it. reproduction? sadly stolen from the relative i left it with while i worked overseas. ther arte some very good smiths out there turning out just as good a weapon as the old stuff. some new swords are junk, some decent place-holders, some just as good if not better than those of the past. beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all, some here will not touch anything less than a few hundred years old. some are more flexible & eclectic. to each his own. i cannot now afford the expensive fancy gold plated and bejewelled sharp pointies beloved by many, and make do with the old warhorses that slip thru the cracks, a few sharp modern swords and axes that just might do when the solar flares knock out our modern world. i'll likely carry this hungarian one (attached), along with a longer sharp pointy or two. too modern for most here, it's got 40 layers of twisted C10+90MnCrV8 top + C10 serrated middle part + 90MnCrV8 serrated cutting edge. i think this will be one of tomorrow's antiques. new isn't necessarily bad, tho this forum is mostly for discussion of the older vintage and antique arms rather than ones that may be in use even as i type somewhere in the world... Attached Images

27th April 2016, 12:37 PM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	My own impressions... A most interesting thread indeed! Modern bladesmiths do produce some fantastic work, very often surpassing antiques in terms of functional capability as well as fit and finish. I surely like Kronckew's short sword pictured above; such high quality work surely qualifies as art and should appreciate or hold its value (though these should be secondary concerns to a collector). I have never had a huge 'war chest' of cash to pursue the collecting hobby, though I have probably been more fortunate than many. In order not to be overwhelmed, I would apply blinders and focus on something specific, though the collection shows evidence of too many diversions from when I found quality where I was not looking. One of the things that attracts me to this field of collecting is the incredible ingenuity that craftsmen 'before science' applied to overcome their often inferior materials and lack of scientific understanding of what was really going on. The antiques also, for me, carry a cachet of being from and part of a time when edged weapons were truly culturally relevant. But, in the end, one should collect what *personally thrills one's self* and not what others tell them that they should like. If such items become a good investment, that should be 'icing on the cake' for the collector's estate.

26th April 2016, 08:56 PM	#1
silberschatzimsee Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 90	I still don't own any weapon but for me collecting new 'replicas' is not an option. I prefer to stay without anything rather than haveing something contemporary. Off course should I want to participate in reenactments or similiar festivities I would go for the modern stuff, but then I wouldn't consider them collectibles but tools which can be heavily used without takeing too much cautions about their wear down. So I am still waiting for the right object to stumble upon but that's part of the game when collecting.

26th April 2016, 10:38 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There are as many collections as there are collectors. Each one collects what he (or she) wants and there are no rules or objective criteria to judge the validity of reasons for collecting any particular category of objects. Come to think of it, there are some strange people who collect beer labels, old coins, watches, Faberge eggs, antique cars, mistresses, and ( horror, horror!) .... stamps! :-))))

27th April 2016, 04:43 AM	#3
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 435	As I see it, there is a basic choice to be made, whether to focus on examples which were made, and used, within a period in which their use was the norm, or to support the continuance of a traditional art and craft, so that it might not be lost. Either, or both, are worthy of effort and expenditure of personal treasure, in my opinion. The making of objects which are visual and perhaps functional replicas of weapons from days gone by, for the purpose of studying techniques of their use in the period for which they were intended, is also worthwhile. Making objects, however artfully, with the purpose to deceive, is less worthy a practice. However, I can even see a certain utility in forming a collection of deliberate fakes and forgeries, so long as it is represented as such. Stuff made as souvenirs for tourists has the value of supporting the maker, and pleasing the tourist. I can't see collecting it, myself, but tastes differ. I knew someone who collected schlocky ashtrays from the places she visited; she derived much pleasure from this. I don't see that I've added anything of value to this discussion, alas; nor have I closed any doors. With 8,000,000,000 people extant, more or less, there's plenty of room for variety. As Aleister Crowley, described as "England's worst man", put it, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". (I think England produces the best eccentrics).

27th April 2016, 07:11 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Very good topic. This link covers some of your questions. It is not about swords but the same argument applies. Many fine words about good new art as opposed to bad new art, and who is to say who can make art {no different to swords} These comments all seem to be from collector dealers or dealer collectors???? http://www.newguineaart.com/png-art.php Something I would add from my own experience: try selling or exchanging a good new piece to a dealer, sadly their opinions I have found are somewhat different to the fine words. If you have the money to collect fine new pieces as in this other link then fine. If you have not you probably get better pieces and value from old to antique. Not only do you get a nice thing at sometimes sensible prices but also history. I know where my interest is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x5WzIu5iXU A really good documentery understanding modern sword collecting.

27th April 2016, 08:48 AM	#6
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	Not all new made swords are replicas. A newly commissioned katana from a Japanese smith is a katana, no more no less. British Army Officers still buy new made swords to carry on parade. Ceremonial items... yes. Made of stainless steel... sometines. Still real swords not replicas. I like to classify swords in this way: 1.Genuine. A functional sword made and used in the way it always has been. Does not have to be old. 2. Antique/vintage. An old genuine sword, originally issued and used as intended. May now be too delicate or valuable to be anything other than an object of study or admiration. 3.Replica. A sword made to look similar to a genuine sword. May be made of different materials or constructed differently to a genuine sword, Does not have to be functional, Many swords purchased by reenactors fall into this category.; 4. Recreation. A modern made functioning sword that reproduces the look and feel of ancient blades. Can vary a lot in quality but many modern smiths are producing custom work of the finest quality. These allow mere mortals to handle swords that are normally only seen in relic condition in museums. 6. Fantasy. Modern made funtional swords made to non traditional designs. Often based around blades appearing in films or novels. Quality can range from diabolial to superb. 5. Fake. A sword sold with the intention raising more money from the purchaser by deception. A good replica swords is nor a fake until someone tries to sell it as genuine or antique. 6. Genuine fake . I have added this one to my categories to cater for Japanese gimie blades. Genuine antique katans but with a fake signature often added by the original smith to increase value. Can be valuable in their own right. Happy collecting

27th April 2016, 01:18 PM	#8
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Lee said: "But, in the end, one should collect what personally thrills one's self and not what others tell them that they should like. If such items become a good investment, that should be 'icing on the cake' for the collector's estate." Agree 100%; collect what you like, but like what you collect. Rich