A Batangas Brass Bladed Dagger

Robert · 26th April 2016, 04:26 PM

Quote:

I am aware that copper blades were talismanic (and perhaps brass/bronze as well?).

I have heard that copper, brass and bronze blades were all considered to be talismanic. One other thing I was also told is that it was believed that when used to stab someone the copper blades were supposed to have the power to leave a wound that would not heal and would eventually lead to the death of the victim. I have not heard if the blades made of brass/bronze are supposed to have the same power or not.

Sajen · 26th April 2016, 08:52 PM

Hello Robert,

another great addition to your ever growing collection of brass and copper bladed knives and daggers. And like usual a very good restauration, top work.

Best regards,
Detlef

Robert · 28th April 2016, 06:41 PM

Detlef, Thank you for your kind comments on the restoration work. I try to be as accurate as possible when having to make replacement parts (or when making repairs to original parts) using the same materials and trying to match the finish as closely as possible to that of the item they are to be placed on. I just wish that there was more information available on what the original intended use of these brass and copper bladed knives and daggers was. As Jose has suggested they had a talismanic purpose to help ward off evil as well as being an effective weapon against people with supernatural powers. It has also been suggested that they are ceremonial in nature, but not what capacity they served. There is also the belief that wounds inflicted by their use will not readily heal and will help lead to the subsequent death of the victim. I have also heard that brass and copper bladed knives were used to cut open bags of gunpowder because they will not create sparks, something definitely not wanted while working with or around explosives. Unfortunately because of the way they are built most of the brass/copper bladed daggers and knives that I have seen would not be suitable for this purpose. A more robust blade than most of these possess would be needed for such a task. I have just won a copper bladed knife that I believe was actually made for this purpose and will post photos of it here just as soon as it arrives. I would greatly appreciate any other information or suggestion that anyone has on the use of these unique items.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 28th April 2016, 07:20 PM

Hello Robert,

this is exactly what I meant.

Maybe others don't noticed the well worked and exact solvering of the brass part, exactly like I've seen it by old/antique examples, the same with the well chosen copper end plate, again like I've seen it before originally. At last the perfect patina match of the brass with the original fittings, very good.

Regarding brass and copper bladed daggers/knives I also only know the possible reasons you have numerated already. But what I have seen until now is that all this daggers and knives would do the same job as a steel bladed counterpart IMVHO. So maybe you can find them just because iron wasn't at hand.

But your incoming example could be indeed a powderman's knife. Courious to see your pictures.

Regards,
Detlef

Robert · 2nd May 2016, 12:33 AM

Detlef, Again I thank you for your very kind words on my work. Here are a few photos of what I believe to be a powder-mans knife that I had just won. Other than turning the guard to its correct position (as the hilt was loose from the blade when it arrived) I have only cleaned and oiled the scabbard and wooden section of the hilt. Later I will replace the small brass band now missing from the tip of the scabbard and repair the break in the guard where the tang passes through before reattaching the hilt in a more permanent way. The total length of the knife is 12-3/4 inches, the blade has a single beveled cutting edge, is 8-1/2 inches in length, 1-1/8 inches wide at the hilt and is 3/8 inch thick. All in all a very heavily built piece. This knife would serve well for cutting open powder bags as well as cutting fuse without the problem of producing sparks. I believe that this knife deserves its own thread so I will start a new one hopefully to get more response from our members.

David R · 2nd May 2016, 10:43 AM

Re. the "one piece scabbard" if the wood is split rather than cut/sawn lengthways before working the cavity, then the join would be virtually invisible! Could this be the case here?

Robert · 2nd May 2016, 05:06 PM

Anything is possible David, but I have worked with wood for years and even when split in the manner you suggest there are still tells, usually shown in the end grain of the wood. Even though I can find absolutely no evidence of this method being used anywhere on this scabbard, if done with great care to detail what you suggest could still explain how this was accomplished.

Best,
Robert

P.S.
I have just taken a second look at the scabbard and because of the way the grain runs (it looks to be quarter sawn) splitting it in the manner you described before working the blade recess would be all but impossible to accomplish.

2nd May 2016, 12:33 AM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Detlef, Again I thank you for your very kind words on my work. Here are a few photos of what I believe to be a powder-mans knife that I had just won. Other than turning the guard to its correct position (as the hilt was loose from the blade when it arrived) I have only cleaned and oiled the scabbard and wooden section of the hilt. Later I will replace the small brass band now missing from the tip of the scabbard and repair the break in the guard where the tang passes through before reattaching the hilt in a more permanent way. The total length of the knife is 12-3/4 inches, the blade has a single beveled cutting edge, is 8-1/2 inches in length, 1-1/8 inches wide at the hilt and is 3/8 inch thick. All in all a very heavily built piece. This knife would serve well for cutting open powder bags as well as cutting fuse without the problem of producing sparks. I believe that this knife deserves its own thread so I will start a new one hopefully to get more response from our members. Attached Images Last edited by Robert; 2nd May 2016 at 04:53 AM.

2nd May 2016, 05:06 PM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Anything is possible David, but I have worked with wood for years and even when split in the manner you suggest there are still tells, usually shown in the end grain of the wood. Even though I can find absolutely no evidence of this method being used anywhere on this scabbard, if done with great care to detail what you suggest could still explain how this was accomplished. Best, Robert P.S. I have just taken a second look at the scabbard and because of the way the grain runs (it looks to be quarter sawn) splitting it in the manner you described before working the blade recess would be all but impossible to accomplish. Last edited by Robert; 2nd May 2016 at 05:40 PM.

26th April 2016, 08:52 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Hello Robert, another great addition to your ever growing collection of brass and copper bladed knives and daggers. And like usual a very good restauration, top work. Best regards, Detlef

28th April 2016, 06:41 PM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Detlef, Thank you for your kind comments on the restoration work. I try to be as accurate as possible when having to make replacement parts (or when making repairs to original parts) using the same materials and trying to match the finish as closely as possible to that of the item they are to be placed on. I just wish that there was more information available on what the original intended use of these brass and copper bladed knives and daggers was. As Jose has suggested they had a talismanic purpose to help ward off evil as well as being an effective weapon against people with supernatural powers. It has also been suggested that they are ceremonial in nature, but not what capacity they served. There is also the belief that wounds inflicted by their use will not readily heal and will help lead to the subsequent death of the victim. I have also heard that brass and copper bladed knives were used to cut open bags of gunpowder because they will not create sparks, something definitely not wanted while working with or around explosives. Unfortunately because of the way they are built most of the brass/copper bladed daggers and knives that I have seen would not be suitable for this purpose. A more robust blade than most of these possess would be needed for such a task. I have just won a copper bladed knife that I believe was actually made for this purpose and will post photos of it here just as soon as it arrives. I would greatly appreciate any other information or suggestion that anyone has on the use of these unique items. Best, Robert

28th April 2016, 07:20 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Hello Robert, this is exactly what I meant. Maybe others don't noticed the well worked and exact solvering of the brass part, exactly like I've seen it by old/antique examples, the same with the well chosen copper end plate, again like I've seen it before originally. At last the perfect patina match of the brass with the original fittings, very good. Regarding brass and copper bladed daggers/knives I also only know the possible reasons you have numerated already. But what I have seen until now is that all this daggers and knives would do the same job as a steel bladed counterpart IMVHO. So maybe you can find them just because iron wasn't at hand. But your incoming example could be indeed a powderman's knife. Courious to see your pictures. Regards, Detlef

2nd May 2016, 10:43 AM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	Re. the "one piece scabbard" if the wood is split rather than cut/sawn lengthways before working the cavity, then the join would be virtually invisible! Could this be the case here?