guardless nimcha

ariel · 26th April 2016, 02:18 AM

Ibrahiim,
Assigning Ottoman origin to these swords is a pretty safe bet: till the end of WWI Syria, Iraq, Aravia were all Ottoman provinces. Ethnically, however, they have nothing to do with the core of the Ottoman Empire, i.e. Turkey.
Well, perhaps with the exception of the Karabela: even though it is clearly South Aravian, the name Karabela stems from the Turkish town Karabel. I doubt, however, that the original owner(s) ever called it by that name: just "sayf" :-)

As to ## 2 and 3, I re-examined them very carefully and could not find any evidence of re-hilting. There is still uncleaned black patina of the blades by the quillon block, the gaps between the blades and the handles are filled with old and crumbly mastique. The tang protrusions on the pommel are covered with very old patina and rust. The wooden handles are heavily patinated , with scars, losses and a myriad of old " kisses of time". If the re-hitting happened at all, it happened hell of a lot of years ago.

Sorry, old buddy, but you look at their pics, whereas I am holding them in my hands:-)

estcrh · 26th April 2016, 05:52 AM

Here are some similar examples, is there any argument about these examples being authentic?

kahnjar1 · 26th April 2016, 06:04 AM

Hmmm. Interesting swords...must be recent Sana'a rehilts

Hardly likely that such a well known dealer would try to pass off "fakes" as real swords.......

estcrh · 26th April 2016, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hmmm. Interesting swords...must be recent Sana'a rehilts

Hardly likely that such a well known dealer would try to pass off "fakes" as real swords.......

Here is one that appears to be newly made, it was supposedly very recently purchased at the Janadriyah Festival outside of Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. I have to think that this type of hilt is an older form that has been for some reason frequently copied as Ibrahiim points out. The question is how do you determine older ones from newer ones.

ariel · 26th April 2016, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here is one that appears to be newly made.... The question is how do you determine older ones from newer ones.

I guess you just gave an answer: it "appears" to be. In this case the rivets are shiny, the handle material is in an unusually good shape, the notch is still having traces of rough work not polished by years of contact with human hand.... Most bazaar forgers are not doctors Moriarty, the Napoleons of crime, and they leave myriad of small incongruities that tell experienced collectors that something is not entirely kosher, and that's usually enough for the old antennae to start twitching:-)

And when they do, just walk away.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th April 2016, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here are some similar examples, is there any argument about these examples being authentic?

Salaams estcrh, These are excellent photographs and the descriptions blanket cover what has been part of the mystery surrounding these forms. It is well known that the Clauberg blades appear on many of these hilts..but as you see these are vastly different hilts; some roughly formed and others that are uniformally precise...in Rosewood and Horn or roughcast wood... The same with the ironwork...roughly hammered or precisely made with precast iron to the hilts... I think they form the origin of species of the later copies done in backyard workshops in and around Sanaa. There is no argument here...

These are in my view...some of the Zanzibar forms later copied in Sanaa. The Sanaa copies used Ethiopian blades having removed the Rhino hilt Gurade hilts and replaced (though not always) with poor quality iron. It still goes on today. Sanaa provides such stock to Muttrah, Salalah and no doubt Cairo, Istanbul and Sharjah souks. Regional variation in hilts is interesting with silver covering hilts in Saudia style sometimes in the Karabela form and other hilts decorated in pot metal...The chart by Butin shows many of the variations..but does not include Muttrah recent (since 1970)_ rehilts. In fact does not the chart by Butin below suggest a much more organised ..even industrial approach to mass turnout of the precise hilt form for which no one has put the finger upon ...Could it be Afghan production/ Indian contract?

Where I think the real intrigue exists is in discovering where the Moroccan and Zanzibar sword form sprouted out of... How did Spanish/Moroccan sword form get to the Indian Ocean and was it direct or indirect from Europe or the Philippines...or both. Was it by sea...or land? Or both!! What is the connection with Afghanistan and was there any collusion in these from Hadramaut or Hyderabad..and did the Yemeni influence in Hyderabad or India have any bearing on this trade?... How did Oman influence this weapons development and when did the Ivory gold inlaid weapons appear and was it at the time or before Said the Great took over Zanzibar as the capital of Oman in the late 1830s...? Where did the uniform hilt originate since it looks like a workshop or factory precise item rather than hand made ?... Could it have been Navy?...or military in its style?

For more blades at Muttrah see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=omani+souk

For a good example of the Ethiopian Gurade see http://stsathyre.tumblr.com/post/364...ord-dated-19th

As a general querry there seems to be a bell ringing on sword number 1009 on the Butin Chart ...does this hilt pommel remind us of an African shape but turned ?? That of the Billao of Somalia. Ilustrated below.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2016, 11:52 PM

Most astutely observed Ibrahiim !!! That hilt with three prongs most certainly does resemble the Somalian 'billao' !!!
I wonder if there is more on the development of the billao, and obviously relationship to these nimchas. It seems these are shown in Elgood (Arabian Arms) as Hadhramauti, but it seems there are Indian counterparts.
More research!!!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th April 2016, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Most astutely observed Ibrahiim !!! That hilt with three prongs most certainly does resemble the Somalian 'billao' !!!
I wonder if there is more on the development of the billao, and obviously relationship to these nimchas. It seems these are shown in Elgood (Arabian Arms) as Hadhramauti, but it seems there are Indian counterparts.
More research!!!

Salaams Jim , I agree ...More research... I would like to place a further supposition here that indicates, perhaps, the true meaning behind the word (from the Baluch); Nimcha. It appears to concoct a single word from two . Nim meaning half and Cha being sword/blade. These blades are both long and short thus it may not mean half sword?...

Applied to this form, could it mean single edged sword?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

estcrh · 28th April 2016, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

As a general querry there seems to be a bell ringing on sword number 1009 on the Butin Chart ...

I enlarged it but is there a larger and clearer image of this chart, also is there a discription page which matches the numbers on the chart?

ariel · 28th April 2016, 02:06 AM

Bravo Ibrahiim!

I never had an inkling of a thought that Somali Billao and the South-Aravian Sayf may have common roots.

These are exactly the minutiae that allow us to make important connections!

Good job!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th April 2016, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Bravo Ibrahiim!

I never had an inkling of a thought that Somali Billao and the South-Arabian Sayf may have common roots.

These are exactly the minutiae that allow us to make important connections!

Good job!

Salaams Ariel ..Thank you !! They may well be related. It is interesting that the form of hilt is also reflected in Saudia style often with a completely metal plated hilt..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th April 2016, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

I enlarged it but is there a larger and clearer image of this chart, also is there a discription page which matches the numbers on the chart?

Salaams estcrh, Thanks that's a great improvement !! Actually I haven't seen a descriptive chart but since they are numbered I suppose there is one... Anyone got the chart please??

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Andreas · 28th April 2016, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

I enlarged it but is there a larger and clearer image of this chart, also is there a discription page which matches the numbers on the chart?

You will find a digitized copy of Buttin's catalogue here http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6524676d
Plates I-XXXII at the end, the description for #1009 is on page 262.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th April 2016, 09:24 AM

Salaams ...and as a continuation of the Baluch clue... I Quote"

The East African Baloch.

In 1821, the Sultan and Imam of Oman, Seyyid Said bin Sultan Al Busaidi, hired an Iranian fleet to invade the islands and ports of East Africa. The Iranian fleet leased by the Sultan of Oman consisted mostly of Baluchi and Sindhi/Cutchi mercenaries, with a few Arab, Persian, and Pathan officers from India. Almost all of these, after their families had arrived from Iran and India, settled in the coastal towns in or around the forts and the newly built camps (e.g., Saa-teeni north of Zanzibar City and Fort Jesus in Mombasa – the largest fortification in East Africa), with the Baluchi cavalry settling in Zanzibar City at the site of the present Haile Selassie School."Unquote. and recommend the article from which this came at

http://www.chapatimystery.com/archiv...an_baloch.html

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

estcrh · 4th May 2016, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams ...and as a continuation of the Baluch clue... I Quote"

The East African Baloch.

In 1821, the Sultan and Imam of Oman, Seyyid Said bin Sultan Al Busaidi, hired an Iranian fleet to invade the islands and ports of East Africa. The Iranian fleet leased by the Sultan of Oman consisted mostly of Baluchi and Sindhi/Cutchi mercenaries, with a few Arab, Persian, and Pathan officers from India. Almost all of these, after their families had arrived from Iran and India, settled in the coastal towns in or around the forts and the newly built camps (e.g., Saa-teeni north of Zanzibar City and Fort Jesus in Mombasa – the largest fortification in East Africa), with the Baluchi cavalry settling in Zanzibar City at the site of the present Haile Selassie School."Unquote. and recommend the article from which this came at

http://www.chapatimystery.com/archiv...an_baloch.html

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Very interesting historical information.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 1st May 2016, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

You will find a digitized copy of Buttin's catalogue here http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6524676d
Plates I-XXXII at the end, the description for #1009 is on page 262.

Salaams!! Excellently placed material here by Andreas. There are actually more charts relevant to the overall picture well stocked with similar swords. The charts are at the back of the digitized book.
I am considering at the moment how the name Nimcha evolved and if it is a Baluchi word (possibly Iranian Baluch) how it became diffused if in fact it did spread to North Africa ...or whether this is more to do with worldwide sword nomenclature rather than the sword itself ? There is some evidence which points in the Indo Baluch or Iranian Baluch direction not least the huge inclusion of Baluch mercenary groups on the Zanj coast...and employed by Said the Great from about 1830...and a large number of such forces in the Great Lakes. Where this fits in the jigsaw of Nimcha terminology ..I am still trying to discover. There is even a place in India called Nimcha !

In reference to a note I made earlioer on Zanzibar City ...From Wikepedia note;
Quote "Zanzibar City is the capital and largest city of Zanzibar, in Tanzania. It is located on the west coast of Unguja, the main island of the Zanzibar Archipelago, roughly due north of Dar es Salaam across the Zanzibar Channel.''Unquote. At its heart is the old town of Stonetown.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 1st May 2016, 12:23 PM

In his book "The races of Afghanistan" Henry Bellew discusses Nimchas, "The Half-and-Half", ie mixed race or converted "Kaffirs"

And Elgood and others explained that the very term Nimcha stems from Arabic Nim, half, and -cha, a diminutive suffix.

Thus, nothing specific sword-related. Kind of "Shorty":-)

26th April 2016, 05:52 AM	#2
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Here are some similar examples, is there any argument about these examples being authentic? Attached Images

26th April 2016, 02:18 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ibrahiim, Assigning Ottoman origin to these swords is a pretty safe bet: till the end of WWI Syria, Iraq, Aravia were all Ottoman provinces. Ethnically, however, they have nothing to do with the core of the Ottoman Empire, i.e. Turkey. Well, perhaps with the exception of the Karabela: even though it is clearly South Aravian, the name Karabela stems from the Turkish town Karabel. I doubt, however, that the original owner(s) ever called it by that name: just "sayf" :-) As to ## 2 and 3, I re-examined them very carefully and could not find any evidence of re-hilting. There is still uncleaned black patina of the blades by the quillon block, the gaps between the blades and the handles are filled with old and crumbly mastique. The tang protrusions on the pommel are covered with very old patina and rust. The wooden handles are heavily patinated , with scars, losses and a myriad of old " kisses of time". If the re-hitting happened at all, it happened hell of a lot of years ago. Sorry, old buddy, but you look at their pics, whereas I am holding them in my hands:-)

26th April 2016, 06:04 AM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Hmmm. Interesting swords...must be recent Sana'a rehilts Hardly likely that such a well known dealer would try to pass off "fakes" as real swords.......

27th April 2016, 11:52 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Most astutely observed Ibrahiim !!! That hilt with three prongs most certainly does resemble the Somalian 'billao' !!! I wonder if there is more on the development of the billao, and obviously relationship to these nimchas. It seems these are shown in Elgood (Arabian Arms) as Hadhramauti, but it seems there are Indian counterparts. More research!!!

28th April 2016, 02:06 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Bravo Ibrahiim! I never had an inkling of a thought that Somali Billao and the South-Aravian Sayf may have common roots. These are exactly the minutiae that allow us to make important connections! Good job!

29th April 2016, 09:24 AM	#14
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams ...and as a continuation of the Baluch clue... I Quote" The East African Baloch. In 1821, the Sultan and Imam of Oman, Seyyid Said bin Sultan Al Busaidi, hired an Iranian fleet to invade the islands and ports of East Africa. The Iranian fleet leased by the Sultan of Oman consisted mostly of Baluchi and Sindhi/Cutchi mercenaries, with a few Arab, Persian, and Pathan officers from India. Almost all of these, after their families had arrived from Iran and India, settled in the coastal towns in or around the forts and the newly built camps (e.g., Saa-teeni north of Zanzibar City and Fort Jesus in Mombasa – the largest fortification in East Africa), with the Baluchi cavalry settling in Zanzibar City at the site of the present Haile Selassie School."Unquote. and recommend the article from which this came at http://www.chapatimystery.com/archiv...an_baloch.html Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

1st May 2016, 12:23 PM	#17
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In his book "The races of Afghanistan" Henry Bellew discusses Nimchas, "The Half-and-Half", ie mixed race or converted "Kaffirs" And Elgood and others explained that the very term Nimcha stems from Arabic Nim, half, and -cha, a diminutive suffix. Thus, nothing specific sword-related. Kind of "Shorty":-)