swords of Mohammed, but what about...

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Nechesh,

I don't think anyone is seriously positing that any of the swords in the Topkapi were actually Mohammed's. However, they appear to be extremely fine and, presumeably, valuable and important artifacts in their own right.

But I do agree that confirmation of such extraordinary provenance would require a miracle.

Are you sure about that Andrew? The scholars at the Topkapi Museum apparently believe this. And Mr. Carter seems to have his own beliefs as well. I'm with Ariel on this one. Attributing swords to King David seems a bit far-fetched to me and this conversation could decline into a "my belief is stronger than your belief" argument. I am interested in provenance. MY "beliefs" would only scare people.
This looks like a job for Indiana Jones!

[M.carter]

My Beliefs might be absolutely wrong, they might seem crazy to others. No one can absolutely sure that these swords might have been the property of their alleged owners, but why not? I mean we do not have evidence that they aren't Mohammed's. Their style is identical to the swords of Arabia at the time of Mohammed. Also, the Arabian prophet isn't THAT old, he was around only 1400 years ago. With King Davids case, yes, it might be ridiculous, but why Mohammeds, his property is very sacred to all muslims, so they probably will take great care in keeping them and preserving them for future generations to see. Even King Davids property is probably very sacred to muslims, living in an arabian country, I have many muslim friends, and all of them highly praise ALL the prophets before their own prophet. Even the property of the Messiah, the only reason to what Saladin did to the true cross was that the muslims do not believe that Christ was crucified, they believe that he was sent up to the heavens by god, and another man who looked identical to him was sent down by god to replace him and be crucified, so what they think is that preserving the true cross is ridiculous because it didnt even exist, thats what they think, but lets not go into religion here, please.

[Rivkin]

I have couple of swords that look right for 7th century (even through they where made way later), I bet no one can prove that they never belonged to Mohammed.

The burden of proof is always on someone presenting the items and theories. Otherwise we would have Rembrandts going for 5$ per square feet.

Yes, it is quite possible that one of those guys is the original one. Again, one needs to have some facts to support such a claim, and without really knowing how these swords appeared into existance it's impossible to argue anything in support of that.

Concerning swords of David - well, taking in mind what was the history like for the past 2500, the chanse of such relic to survive is basically 0. It's not like Egypt where if you are lucky you can find a treasure cove with everything intact.

Concerning the respect that muslims would show to his pocessions - it's hard to show respect to something that in principle was never found. And this respect created much hatred and fighting for it caused the competition with jews and christians for the control over jewish and christian relics.

[Battara]

Here is an example of the "split sword" of the Prophet used as a talisman on a sword. Below is a Moro barong that is sultan class with gold, silver, and ivory. It comes from the book "The Gods of War" and once belonged to Stone (and is in his book as well). The talisman is silver inlay on the blade with other "arabic" talismanic writing as well: (one of the pics sent to Lee for resizing).

[Battara]

Here is an 19c Ottoman battle flag that has the "sword of the Prophet" on it. It was auctioned at Christies last year:

[Federico]

Originally Posted by Battara

Here is an 19c Ottoman battle flag that has the "sword of the Prophet" on it. It was auctioned at Christies last year:

So that is the split sword of David. Thank you so very much Battara. I have a kris with a silver inlay with this symbol, and it always had me scratching my head as to why they would inlay a figure of a man. Unfortunately a good portion of the inlay has fallen out.

[erlikhan]

There is the flag of the 16th.century Turkish pirate and later naval commander Barbaros Hayrettin in naval museum-Istanbul. It has the same symbol.

[Yannis]

Barbaros Hayrettin a.k.a. Barbarossa or Khayr ad-Din. A great Greek indeed!

Just joking... This great commander was born in Lesbos island and some sources claim he was born christian. I dont say it is a fact, and I dont start a flame. He served the Sultan and he was a genius admiral.
His major opponent was also famous: Andrea Doria, an italian legend

[erlikhan]

Won Preveze war against Doria's navy in 1538 making Ottomans the only authority in Mediterennean till 1571 Inebahti war. His father was a "timarli sipahi" named "Yakup" from Eceabat-Canakkale and being granted soil in Midilli (Lesbos), and her mother is told as a christian named Katalina according in some western sources, me not knowing if based on objective info or not. You should have read from them. You probably know what" timarli sipahi" is. Ignoring very rare exceptions, as law only Turkish soldiers (not christian conversions like janissaries, or other muslim tribes) who took role in conquering new lands were granted with some soil with people and villages on it, being responsible to take care of that land and collect tax, and train and feed soldiers given under his rule, and joining army with their men in war time, etc. Their titles, privileges and duties were passing to their sons. As the island was conquered in 15th cen., it is certain that Hayrettin was son of such a sipahi. He tells much about his father in his own memories. His brothers were pirates too, leaving their fatherland and joining Hayrettin in Algeria which he conquered himself with his crew in 1516, but all of them being killed in young age in wars against Spanish and Italians.(I strongly recommend all to read his memories if translated into English. He writes much of the chronicles and adventures of plundered ships and towns one by one, envolved battles, sieges, voyages enormously detailed and fast,cheerful, adventurous but not bloody manner. I guess must be the best pirate book on world). So, he is Turkish father and perhaps christian for her mother.would you get proud with the situation and prefer to accept his mother as Greek originated, depends on you

[Battara]

Your welcome for the pics. I had scratched my head as well when I would see this symbol pop up in different places, including Moro blades. Also, I had read something about this Greek years ago. Genius is a good description. Amazing tactian.

By the way, if you need the silver replaced on your blade, just let me know Federico (shameless, I know ).

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by erlikhan

So, he is Turkish father and perhaps christian for her mother.would you get proud with the situation and prefer to accept his mother as Greek originated, depends on you

I dont prefer anything. History has been written without us. But I love some turkish inventions like halva (persian actually) and hammam (ancient greek > roman > byzantine).


As far as I remember, when Turcs arrived to the seashore they hired greeks and arabs to make a fleet. It took 200-300 years to do it, but finally they had a Barbarossa and a Piri Reis. Where do you think they found the tactics and the maps? From heaven or from Ptolemeus?

[erlikhan]

Took 300 years? Funny. Turkish pirate Chaka Reis occupied Izmir from byzantines in 1090, just 19 years after Turks kicked byzance in Malazgirt war and entered eastern Anatolia. Before conquering Trakya and Istanbul, Turkish pirates were plundering all waters of Byzance in 14th century . Many provinces and towns carry their names.They learned from Arabian and Italians but not from Greeks, who were on the peak of poorness and misery in that age. They had become a soccer ball between pope,crusaders and Turks,having no naval force at all.Byzance was the one to hire Genoans and Venetians to use against Turks in 15th century. And I like today's Greeks, flattering with ancient people of 2000-2500 years ago. How many percent of your blood is same with them you think?0.1? Before Greece got independent in 1821, majority of northern Greece were Turks and Macedonians, and even villages around Athens were densily talking Albanian , and hundreds of thousands of Karamanians,mostly orthodox christian Turks added to them after 1923 . And continuous dense cultural assimilation backed by ancient Greece loving western Europe to form a uniform nation and tool to use against Turkey,Russia,Germany, whoever needed. Anyway, an unrelated topic opened by another member must not be the proper place to discuss these. We must show respect.point.

[Rick]

That's right !
two posts deleted and the thread locked for the time being .

[Andrew]

Yannis and erlikhan:

I strongly suggest you two exercise restraint from now on if you wish to continue posting on these fora.

This forum software has an "ignore" function which you should explore.

Andrew