Flintlock Pistols With Rare Safety Frizzens, c1740

[Philip]

[QUOTE=dana_w]I didn't know that Philip. I've been lucky enough to handle hundreds of flintlocks from the period, but most of those were English, French, or Spanish. This is the first swiveling frizzen I've seen other than one published image.

Would you disagree with the assertion that the design is rare?


Hi, Dana
I would most emphatically agree with you in that the design is rare WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF BRITISH-MADE FIREARMS, but this is not necessarily so in general. It was quite common in much of Scandinavia a century before your guns were made, as I mentioned. And as our fellow forumite has so kindly pointed out with photos, the swiveling frizzen was not uncommon in the German-speaking countries as well.

Thanks again for sharing these. I've given some thought to your caked-oil dilemma (I am a restorer of antique arms), and have in the past found mineral spirits to be a good antidote for oils. You apparently have an extreme case, so how about detaching from the wood and a prolonged, complete immersion? After awhile when softening does occur, removal can be accelerated with use of small brass brushes. Here in the States, we can often find at arms fairs and outdoor-equipment shops a product consisting of a wad of thin stainless steel filaments (somewhat like a pot scrubber but softer and without embedded detergents) that's touted as good for de-rusting steel surfaces without scratching the bluing on things like guns or reels. I recall the trade name Gun Scrubber on the last one I bought. 'Was skeptical about the non-scratching claim at first, tried it on a rusty blued rifle barrel of negligible worth, and lo, it did the job as advertised. I think that this, combined with the soaking, should solve your problem but patience is needed. Good luck on this.

[RDGAC]

Hi Dana,

I've been musing on your problem for a while and was wondering if I might be able to lend a hand.

One of the tools conservators use (I hasten here to add that I'm a mere assistant curator, not a conservator, mind you) is the Teas fractional solubility chart. This is a handy diagram that (although it has flaws and limitations) gives a roughly accurate idea of the relationships between properties of different solvents. There's a pretty good Teas chart here.

Anyway, looking at what you've used to far, it seems likely that your solvents have all tended towards the bottom right of the chart; while I'm no chemist by any stretch of the imagination, my understanding is that these solvents all work in the same way, and in this case that's primarily by London dispersion forces acting to force the molecules of the solute apart from each other. On the diagram you can see turpentine and benzene (which I'm using as a rough approximation for lighter fluid in this post).

I'm wondering if you might get better results from a solvent which has higher polarization (Dipole) or hydrogen bonding (I believe aka Keesom) interactions. Unfortunately, the solvents with high hydrogen bonding forces are also alcohols, probably not very good for the wood of the stock as they will displace water and then evaporate, leaving it excessively dry. As a suggestion, you could try to find some of this "Cellosolve" stuff mentioned on the chart.

For the metal parts, I'd try acetone as a starter if they can be detached from the stock. Again, acetone can be bad for wood (it's used as a water displacer during wood conservation, for instance - not a quality that recommends it unless you're planning to replace that water with something, since the acetone will evaporate and be lost quite rapidly) and I would suspect that its fellow ketones are no better, so detachment is highly recommended.

Hope this is useful,

Meredydd

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by RDGAC

One of the tools conservators use (I hasten here to add that I'm a mere assistant curator, not a conservator, mind you) is the Teas fractional solubility chart.

Meredydd, thanks SO MUCH for contributing the Teas Chart. I will re-post it here just in case the link moves in the future.

The locks are not too difficult, but I have a lot of concerns about attempting to remove the barrels and furniture from these 275 year old pistols. Of course I am also concerned about using harsh chemicals near the wooden stock.

[Pukka Bundook]

Very nice pistols Dana.

Beautiful and elegant, and I am pretty sure Lewis Barbar, as the "dot" abobe the initials would be a star for James. The L is likely just poorly struck.

Sideplates of this type are beyond all the others in my opinion!

For cleaning the metal;
There is a substance called Circa 1850 furniture stripper.
(Please bear with me!.........furniture stripper sounds horrific I know!)

If a little is dabbed on the Metal, not the wood, it will lift the dried oil more or less straight away.
It does not touch patina, bluing or browning, and does not require rinsing or anything afterwards.
Even on wood it will not hurt it, but will possibly remove old wax finish and you will not likely want to do that.
I'd suggest trying a spot or two in more hidden areas, and see what you think.
Again, beautiful pistols, as nice as they come.
Attached is a picture of Lewis Barbar's mark, and am sure this is the same mark on your pistols.

Thank you for showing them here Dana.

Richard.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

There is a substance called Circa 1850 furniture stripper.
(Please bear with me!.........furniture stripper sounds horrific I know!)

If a little is dabbed on the Metal, not the wood, it will lift the dried oil more or less straight away.

Thanks Richard (AKA Pukka Bundook), I'll give that a look. Here is a link to the product. It looks like they may carry it at Home Depot.

http://www.swingpaints.com/product/1800

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I am pretty sure Lewis Barbar, as the "dot" abobe the initials would be a star for James.

Trust me on this Richard, it is a Star over "IB". When I have a chance I'll upload a closeup.

[Pukka Bundook]

Dana,

I am sure you know what you are about.
In your photos, I mistook the star for a dot. Please pardon my presumption that it Was a dot!

Richard.

[corrado26]

Trust me on this Richard, it is a Star over "IB".

Sorry, but I read "LB" = Lewis Barbar
corrado26

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by corrado26

Sorry, but I read "LB" = Lewis Barbar
corrado26

I wish it was corrado26, but it is not.

Maybe you are looking at Pukka Bundook's photo which is Lewis Barbar.

[dana_w]

The hard thick brown substance proved very difficult to remove, until my friend Bob Calder recommended a product used to remove linseed oil from old paintings. That product's active ingredient was ammonia, and ammonia proved to be the answer to my dilemma. A day and several hundred q-tips later the first of the two pistols is ready to be rephotographed.

All photos are copyright (c) 2016 Dana K. Williams. All rights are reserved.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by RDGAC

I'm wondering if you might get better results from a solvent which has higher polarization (Dipole) or hydrogen bonding (I believe aka Keesom) interactions.

A friend at an engineering firm near my office recommend a product called Goof Off which uses a combination of Acetone and Xylene. Using the chart you provided, Acetone is higher on the polarization scale (a Keesom) than anything I've tried before. I applied some Goof Off to the face of one frizzen using a cotton swap and it did slowly remove some of the dried linseed oil. I am going to pickup some pure Acetone and give it a try when I get a chance.

Another friend who is an artist recommended a product used to remove dried linseed oil from antique oil paintings called Winsor & Newton Artists' Picture Cleaner. Its active ingredient was ammonia. I had ammonia in the kitchen so I gave it a try and it seems works well too. It is a little harder to control because it doesn't evaporate quickly.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Philip

I would most emphatically agree with you in that the design is rare WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF BRITISH-MADE FIREARMS, but this is not necessarily so in general. It was quite common in much of Scandinavia a century before your guns were made, as I mentioned. And as our fellow forumite has so kindly pointed out with photos, the swiveling frizzen was not uncommon in the German-speaking countries as well.

Thanks Philip. I'll look around and see if I can find some more examples from Scandinavia and the German-speaking countries.

Originally Posted by Philip

Here in the States, we can often find at arms fairs and outdoor-equipment shops a product consisting of a wad of thin stainless steel filaments (somewhat like a pot scrubber but softer and without embedded detergents) that's touted as good for de-rusting steel surfaces without scratching the bluing on things like guns or reels. I recall the trade name Gun Scrubber on the last one I bought.

I'll see if I can find what you are talking about.