Estoc sword of type XVII ?

Roland_M · 5th April 2016, 07:27 AM

Hi Cerjak,

with a weight of 1260 Gramm, a blade length of 109 cm and the balance point you described, i would classify it as an early rapier.

The rapier is a further development of the longsword, the so called "hand and a half sword".

Roland

Cerjak · 28th May 2016, 04:03 PM

This sword in the metropolitan Museum has the same type of cross guard.
Of course the geometry of the blade is different but I believe that the 2 swords are from same the period and origin.
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...t=sword&pos=33
Any comment on it will be welcome.
Best
CERJAK

Cerjak · 11th January 2018, 02:16 PM

an example with same type of pommel and blade geometry said to be Circa 1490

Foxbat · 11th January 2018, 03:58 PM

Even though I agree with Roland that the typical estoc blade was triangular or square/diamond shape, I have seen estocs with fullers. Less common, yes.

Considering the rather long dimension, I would be inclined to put this nice sword in the same group - by application - as the more traditional estocs.

Victrix · 11th January 2018, 04:38 PM

I think it is a Reiterschwert with that blade length and width, and with the fuller reaching all the way down to tbe tip. The quillons and tbe pommel indicate this sword was made for fencing. Are the edges of the blade sharpened for cutting with? As far as I’m aware, estoc blades tend to be longer and thinner with very sharp and solid (fuller, if any, ends higher up the blade to increase strength) tips. They are made for thrust rather than cut. The steel had to be especially hardened for their purpose.

Tordenskiold1721 · 12th January 2018, 09:30 PM

Its a very nice sword, Congratulations ! I agree that this sword is for use by the horse mounted carry or in German language "Reiterschwert", as some choose to use. In English, Reiterschwert = Riders sword.

The dating to the late 1400'hundreds also looks about right. We can say for sure that it is not an Estoc. The blade is not made for piercing plate armor or good quality mail of the period.

Definition of the Estoc:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoc

The grip and handle on the sword could easily have been fitted with an Estoc blade but it is not. The length of the blade is also about the same as on an Estoc as the Estoc's is also made for the horse mounted man.

Foxbat · 12th January 2018, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tordenskiold1721

We can say for sure that it is not an Estoc. The blade is not made for piercing plate armor or good quality mail of the period.

For clarity, estocs were not meant for piercing plate armor, or even good quality riveted mail for the simple reason that they were not capable of doing that. They were capable of defeating leather armor, gambesons and low quality mail, but not much more than this.

Victrix · 15th January 2018, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

an example with same type of pommel and blade geometry said to be Circa 1490

Nice room, Cerjak. I especially love the halberd rack.

Cerjak · 15th January 2018, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Nice room, Cerjak. I especially love the halberd rack.

Hi Vitrix
This room is not my room but only some pictures I found on a similar sword

Tordenskiold1721 · 15th January 2018, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Hi Vitrix
This room is not my room but only some pictures I found on a similar sword

Reference to the dealer were you can see more detailed photos of the same sword is:

http://www.antik-sammlerboerse.info/

The items:

http://www.xn--antik-sammlerbrse-d0b.de/

cornelistromp · 30th January 2018, 07:30 AM

similar pommel in stibbert Museum Firenze.

best,
jasper

28th May 2016, 04:03 PM	#2
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	This sword in the metropolitan Museum has the same type of cross guard. Of course the geometry of the blade is different but I believe that the 2 swords are from same the period and origin. http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...t=sword&pos=33 Any comment on it will be welcome. Best CERJAK Attached Images

11th January 2018, 02:16 PM	#3
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	an example with same type of pommel and blade an example with same type of pommel and blade geometry said to be Circa 1490 Attached Images

30th January 2018, 07:30 AM	#11
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	similar pommel in stibbert Museum Firenze. best, jasper Attached Images

5th April 2016, 07:27 AM	#1
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Hi Cerjak, with a weight of 1260 Gramm, a blade length of 109 cm and the balance point you described, i would classify it as an early rapier. The rapier is a further development of the longsword, the so called "hand and a half sword". Roland

11th January 2018, 03:58 PM	#4
Foxbat Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 69	Even though I agree with Roland that the typical estoc blade was triangular or square/diamond shape, I have seen estocs with fullers. Less common, yes. Considering the rather long dimension, I would be inclined to put this nice sword in the same group - by application - as the more traditional estocs.

11th January 2018, 04:38 PM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	I think it is a Reiterschwert with that blade length and width, and with the fuller reaching all the way down to tbe tip. The quillons and tbe pommel indicate this sword was made for fencing. Are the edges of the blade sharpened for cutting with? As far as I’m aware, estoc blades tend to be longer and thinner with very sharp and solid (fuller, if any, ends higher up the blade to increase strength) tips. They are made for thrust rather than cut. The steel had to be especially hardened for their purpose.

12th January 2018, 09:30 PM	#6
Tordenskiold1721 Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 71	Its a very nice sword, Congratulations ! I agree that this sword is for use by the horse mounted carry or in German language "Reiterschwert", as some choose to use. In English, Reiterschwert = Riders sword. The dating to the late 1400'hundreds also looks about right. We can say for sure that it is not an Estoc. The blade is not made for piercing plate armor or good quality mail of the period. Definition of the Estoc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoc The grip and handle on the sword could easily have been fitted with an Estoc blade but it is not. The length of the blade is also about the same as on an Estoc as the Estoc's is also made for the horse mounted man.