Tulwar, help with dating and translation

Jim McDougall · 3rd April 2016, 06:47 PM

Hi Gernot,
Welcome to our forum and thank you bringing in such an interesting example of tulwar. As Ariel and Jens have observed, this does seem to be a composite, however that is far from being of concern with these weapons.
Actually that is quite a usual circumstance and I would note here that apparently 'gifting' of swords is a pretty standard practice in Talpur regions.

These Baluchi clans were well situated in the Sind territories in which the ruling houses (three), and according to narratives in the 1830s the Talpurs were most fond of fine swords, apparently with their age and fine steel and often embellished in inscriptions in gold. It would seem of course that these instances were with the courts and royal families and officials. While often the inscriptions were short prayers to Hazrut Ali for protection and aid, often also were inscriptions from the Koran or appropriate Persian couplets.

It is further noted that they were at times inscribed with the names of the owners or the name of those who were to receive these swords as gifts.

There is an outstanding article "Swords of the Shazadas and Talpurs" by Peter Hayes ("Connoisseur" magazine Nov. 1971, Vol. 178, #717, p.177) which describes much of this.

It would seem this blade, which has a most interesting deeper curvature than most tulwars and heavier tip, almost approximating a yelman, does seem to be earlier in the century.
As Jens has well noted, though the hilt is not necessarily Talpur or of these regions, it is known that similar forms were sometimes among the often wide variation of hilts, often coming from regions to the south.

ariel · 4th April 2016, 01:04 AM

I recall Fernando's story about his meeting with Rainer Daehnhardt, the famous Portugese collector and author. The latter told Fernando about his meeting with North Indian Raja, who informed him that in the past blades and handles were stored in separate arsenals and re-united when there were rumors of war, and even offered to show him those separate buildings.

We still see tulwars with obviously replaced handles ( not recent replacement but unquestionably old).

Thus, in and of itself, replaced handle is not a disqualifying feature.

What unnerves me with this tulwar is a pretty good set of hints that the handle might have been replaced very recently.

Whether it decreases the value of the renovated tulwar ( taking into account the commonality of the process) I am not sure and would like to learn opinions of Forumites.

Jim McDougall · 4th April 2016, 05:55 AM

From the Hayes (1971) article noted:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th April 2016, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

From the Hayes (1971) article noted:

Salaams Jim, Thank you for the fine article in itself a great research document and as I was looking at Sir Richard Burton I noted Sindh Revisited:
A Journey in the Footsteps of Captain Sir ...1842 -1849

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde · 4th April 2016, 02:16 PM

Interesting article Jim, thank you for showing it.

GePi,
The words Sind and Talpur have been mentioned several times, also in connection with your tulwar. However, your hilt is not a typical Talpur hilt, for such a hilt you will have to look at Jim's article at the last picture. The tulwar at the botton has a typical Talpur hilt.

GePi · 4th April 2016, 05:13 PM

That's a lot of great information you guys are providing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Gernot,
Welcome to our forum and thank you bringing in such an interesting example of tulwar.
There is an outstanding article "Swords of the Shazadas and Talpurs" by Peter Hayes ("Connoisseur" magazine Nov. 1971, Vol. 178, #717, p.177) which describes much of this.

It would seem this blade, which has a most interesting deeper curvature than most tulwars and heavier tip, almost approximating a yelman, does seem to be earlier in the century.

Thanks your for the welcome and for posting that very interesting article, Jim.
I wonder if it is possible to track down this specific owner. Google searching the latin transliteration of his name has yielded no results unsurprisingly.
Concerning the shape of the blade I was wondering if it could be an import, perhaps turkish, though it doesn't have the little "step"(?) that seperates the yelman from the rest of the blade on the kilij blades that I have seen. Although I'm a novice, I have looked at quite a few pictures of antique tulwars, and I have not seen this particular kind of blade shape with a tulwar hilt, or any other hilt to be honest, before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

However, your hilt is not a typical Talpur hilt, for such a hilt you will have to look at Jim's article at the last picture. The tulwar at the botton has a typical Talpur hilt.

Ah, is this hilt style attributed to this particular dynasty or rather the general region?
The sword that pictured right above has a hilt with a shape very similar to the one on my sword though, perhaps traded in or gifted, as Jim mentioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

it is unclear to see, but maybe the tulwar was opened and nickel- or chrome plated. The last picture from your first post makes me think so.

This could be the explanation for the wasteful usage of adhesive.

Hi, Roland,

yes, that could explain why it is still mostly bright and shiny under the dirt.
Is there a way to verfiy that?
Curious that it seems to have been neglected so badly afterwards.

Thanks all, you've been of great help already.

4th April 2016, 05:55 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	From the Hayes (1971) article noted: Attached Images

3rd April 2016, 06:47 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Hi Gernot, Welcome to our forum and thank you bringing in such an interesting example of tulwar. As Ariel and Jens have observed, this does seem to be a composite, however that is far from being of concern with these weapons. Actually that is quite a usual circumstance and I would note here that apparently 'gifting' of swords is a pretty standard practice in Talpur regions. These Baluchi clans were well situated in the Sind territories in which the ruling houses (three), and according to narratives in the 1830s the Talpurs were most fond of fine swords, apparently with their age and fine steel and often embellished in inscriptions in gold. It would seem of course that these instances were with the courts and royal families and officials. While often the inscriptions were short prayers to Hazrut Ali for protection and aid, often also were inscriptions from the Koran or appropriate Persian couplets. It is further noted that they were at times inscribed with the names of the owners or the name of those who were to receive these swords as gifts. There is an outstanding article "Swords of the Shazadas and Talpurs" by Peter Hayes ("Connoisseur" magazine Nov. 1971, Vol. 178, #717, p.177) which describes much of this. It would seem this blade, which has a most interesting deeper curvature than most tulwars and heavier tip, almost approximating a yelman, does seem to be earlier in the century. As Jens has well noted, though the hilt is not necessarily Talpur or of these regions, it is known that similar forms were sometimes among the often wide variation of hilts, often coming from regions to the south.

4th April 2016, 01:04 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I recall Fernando's story about his meeting with Rainer Daehnhardt, the famous Portugese collector and author. The latter told Fernando about his meeting with North Indian Raja, who informed him that in the past blades and handles were stored in separate arsenals and re-united when there were rumors of war, and even offered to show him those separate buildings. We still see tulwars with obviously replaced handles ( not recent replacement but unquestionably old). Thus, in and of itself, replaced handle is not a disqualifying feature. What unnerves me with this tulwar is a pretty good set of hints that the handle might have been replaced very recently. Whether it decreases the value of the renovated tulwar ( taking into account the commonality of the process) I am not sure and would like to learn opinions of Forumites.

4th April 2016, 02:16 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Interesting article Jim, thank you for showing it. GePi, The words Sind and Talpur have been mentioned several times, also in connection with your tulwar. However, your hilt is not a typical Talpur hilt, for such a hilt you will have to look at Jim's article at the last picture. The tulwar at the botton has a typical Talpur hilt.